This Isn’t Funny

September 8th, 2010 by skippy

A while ago I made a decision to try and avoid any sort of political topic where I wind up picking a side on an issue. It nearly always leads to some sort of debate in the comments section, which can frequently flare up into arguments, name calling, and other unpleasantness. And frankly I love to argue, so it’s not like I can just leave well enough alone. A frequent conversation in my house goes like this.

But people usually come here to see something funny, not argue about my political beliefs, so I made a decision to try to avoid those topics.

But today is not going to be one of those days. If that bothers you, feel free to skip this post and come back later. Seriously, this isn’t the lead-in for a really warped joke later. I’m going to talk about something that really bothers me. And frankly, I suspect some people who read this site are going to get upset. I’m fine with that; hopefully they’ll stick around for the quality nerd humor, funny military stories, and disturbing artwork.

It’s really long too.

For real, it’s like my brain just puked all over my keyboard in here.

Still here? Good.

So I’ve always found that knowing things about a person’s background can help you understand who that person is, and why they believe and act the way they do. So some background on me will help all of you understand where I am coming from on this issue.

I am a non-practicing, Ashkenazi Jew. That means several things, some obvious, and some not so obvious. It means that despite my parent’s best efforts, I found their belief structure was just not for me. It means I have an apparent genetic imperative to be a sarcastic smart ass. It means I prefer my genitals to be turtle-neck free.

But it also means that I was raised to be aware that my family has been chased out of every country we have ever lived in by “decent civilized folk”. The Germans get all the credit nowadays, but it’s not like the rest of Europe was queuing up to be all chummy with the Yids. My people have been kicked out of more countries than Gary Glitter.

Given this history, I have found myself getting a bit nervous when I see a growing amount of angry nationalists declaring which minorities aren’t good enough to be considered “one of us.”

I’m sure most folks can see that I am talking about the tone this country has taken towards Muslims lately.

Before anyone get’s all upset over this, you can have an opinion about a religion, or it’s adherents, or events it’s members have participated in, and that doesn’t make you wicked, judgmental, bigoted, or even a particularly unpleasant person.

But taking these views to extremes, or taking certain kinds of actions in relation to these views can.

I have gotten to experience the joy of being on the receiving end of bigoted judgment due to my religion, and ethnicity. (The funny thing about being Jewish is that it is very easy to blend in, and an awful lot of bigots aren’t smart enough to realize this. Also, many don’t even realize they are being bigots.)

I am also a Pagan. Most people are cool with that, some are not. But I have at times in my life caught flak for it. I had an officer try to give me a counseling statement for not being a Judeo-Christian. He seemed honestly concerned that I may try to sacrifice animals or humans. I had a commander tell me that he would prevent me from practicing my faith if he was allowed to. I’ve had my property vandalized. I’ve been harassed. I’ve even been threatened a few times. A great, big, fun experience for me was to be serving in Kosovo during the Ft. Hood Pagan “scandal”.

For those too young to catch this, or who didn’t follow military news, a group of Wiccan soldiers asked to have some space set aside so that they could practice their religion. And then a big chunk of the country shit themselves in terror.

“Oh my God! People who don’t have the same beliefs as me are allowed in the Army? They shouldn’t be allowed in our COUNTRY! Sure the Constitution says that we have freedom of religion but that means ME. That doesn’t say that other people who aren’t me get to worship how they want! Fetch my Senator at once!”

I got to read about how a bunch of people, who knew nothing about me or my beliefs, felt I wasn’t good enough to serve my country. About how I should be kicked out because I wasn’t worthy of wearing the uniform because I prayed differently than they did. And I got to listen to a bunch of craven politicians, always eager to soak up a few more votes no matter how low they have to stoop to grab them, talk about how my beliefs weren’t valid, and that the military shouldn’t treat me with the same courtesy that was given to the other soldiers.

It’s not fun to have people treat you as less than human. It’s not fun to become the target of opportunistic political operatives. It’s not fun to come back to your room and discover that you altar has been vandalized, and that your chain of command isn’t going to do a god-dammed thing about it. And it certainly isn’t fun to realize that your choice is to either suck it up, or make waves that will cause all of your comrades to suffer.

I love this country. It’s the only place on the planet that hasn’t kicked my ancestors out. I’ve served this country. I’ve suffered and bled for it. Not as much as some people have, but more than many others ever will. I was willing to risk death and kill people for it. And I frankly think I have earned the right to practice my faith in peace.

Even if I didn’t do a damn thing to earn it, I still have that right, because that is what our nation is all about.

So given that I have been on the receiving end of this bullshit for most of my life, I find it troubling when I see it happen to someone else.

And I remember a poem that most of us have heard, but holds a particular place in the psyche of my family. I will paraphrase it for you.

“First they came for the Muslims…and I did not speak up for I was not a Muslim.”

Now, naturally I do no think that the plight of the Muslims is quite as bad as it got for the Jews under Hitler. No one has been rounded up to be put into camps. There hasn’t been a huge upswing in violent crime directed at Muslims. But the sheer amount of hate and bile I have been seeing lately is very disturbing to me.

And just because we haven’t crossed that ocean doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be concerned about where the boat is pointing.

I have seen a radio station holding a poll on whether or not Muslims should have to register themselves with the government. It’s unclear whether they will get yellow crescents to sew into their clothes, or if we’ll just reuse all those old stars that are sitting around.

People are holding massive protests, demanding that mosques not be built, and spouting all sorts of vile nonsense about a religion and people they know next to nothing about.

“No temple for the god of terrorists.”
“Everything I need to know about Islam I learned on 9/11.”
“Islam isn’t even a religion, it’s a political movement/cult/worldwide domination attempt.”
“It’s their own fault, they don’t do enough to weed out the extremists in their own ranks.”
“If they’re so innocent why haven’t they disproven the insinuations I just said about them? Huh? It’s their job to prove the shit I come up with about them isn’t true!”
I may be paraphrasing that last one a bit.

Now you know what sounded like that?
“The Jews are raised to steal Christian babies.”
“The covetous Jews stole all our money and destroyed our economy.”
“The Jews killed Jesus.”

Recently I’ve been seeing things lean towards that same sort of blind ignorant hate, and it both saddens and scares me. Partially because this country has too many Muslims who don’t deserve that sort of treatment. And partially because well dammit, we’re better than this. At least we should be.

Now, many people who read this may feel that comparing the current rhetoric to Nazi speech is going a bit far. Hell a few weeks ago I would have said the same thing.

I mean, the speech has been going farther and farther, but surely no one here would actually take it as far as Nazi levels right? And I mean real Nazi levels…everyone compares every political opponent to Nazi’s, which is easy because there were a lot of them, and they did lots of things. (I mean people call both Bush and Obama Nazis, despite the two of them having opposite political views and a distinct lack of Zyklon B brand Easy-Bake Ovens.)

And then I read something from a guy on the FARK comments section. Basically he made what I felt was an outrageous claim, and I decided to test it out for myself. This dude’s name was Impaler, and I totally stole this idea from him. Hell I actually stole his text, verbatim. I wanted this on the record, I don’t want people going “Man, you totally stole that from Skippy” to this poor guy. Also, I want to go on record as saying that you should normally not take advice from a guy called Impaler.

What this guy did, is he took an article written by a Nazi in 1942, and did a simple search and replace on it. The original article is here. It’s basically a justification for the Final Solution.

The word Jew was replaced with Muslim. The word German was replaced with American, and so on.

I then did a Google search for internet forums where people were discussion the Mosque in New York, specifically looking for ones where the website’s tone indicated that they were against it. I found a dozen such sites, and posted this nasty little piece of German shame.

“Surely” I thought, “people will recognize this for what it is and condemn it.”

So of the 12 sites here was how folks responded.

Five sites deleted my comments. Almost half, good for them.

Two had other people offer support to my comment.

One guy argued against it, but not because it sounded like a Nazi speech, but because he was a Pakistani Muslim who was tired of people on that forum calling him evil.

And that was it. No one else had anything to say on the matter. No one called me on what I posted. No one argued.

I can’t fully condemn the sites that did nothing. Maybe no one was paying attention to the comments section. Maybe they just decided I was a troll and ignored me. Maybe the post was just too long for people to bother reading.

But a lot of those site had commentators saying things just as extreme. Some more so. One even had people suggesting that they use dogs to terrorize Muslims out of building in their community, since dogs were ritually unclean animals, and could be trained to bite.

I can’t pretend that this conclusively proves anything one way or the other. But I wish more people would speak up when they see this sort of thing.

And I wish we lived in a country were this wasn’t even an issue I needed to worry about.

In closing, I know that it is very unlikely that I changed anyone’s mind. Those that agree with me now, probably leaned that way before they started reading. Those that disagree probably had their minds made up ahead of time too.

But if you do disagree, if you have some reason why you think this one religion is special and that American’s who are members don’t deserve to be treated as well as the rest of us, please explain why. But before you do think about what you think you know. Is it really different from how other religions have acted? Do the actions of a few people taint the rest? Are American’s responsible for what people with the same religion do in another country? Is the second largest religion on the planet one large monolithic organization? And do you think that every crazy thing written in an old religious text is taken at face value and enforced without question by everyone who reads that text? (Psst…for the record, there is probably some seriously crazy stuff in whatever holy book you prefer. I’m looking in your direction Leviticus 19:19.)

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, September 8th, 2010 at 8:23 pm and is filed under Soapbox. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

Leon Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 8:47 pm

Agreed, the whole situation is escalating to ridiculous levels and being manipulated by asshats trying to score political points.

alwen Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 9:06 pm

This kind of stuff drives me crazy. Hello, First Amendment, anybody?

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. “

ShuttleZ Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 9:10 pm

Simply and humbly, Thank you Skippy.

I have always believed that there are decent people out there no mater what race, creed or colour and you have re-enforced that.

I am Muslim. It’s as simple and as complicated as that. Very few people will take the time to ask me to explain what that means without making some reference or joke about terrorism and it shits me to tears.

That brand of vitriol followed by those extremists, more often than not by those that follow the branch called Wahabi (Google it) or the Taliban (thought it was just a political group? Think again), spewed forth like bile by those rabid animals that dare call themselves Muslin damages all of us.

We have all been tarred and feathered by the same brush and it saddens me.

Even the Cronulla Riots of 2005 here in Sydney have left their mark, sadly making our great Southern Cross emblem sometimes looking like the next Swastika when its used on a bumper sticker stating “Aussie Pride. Bugger Off, We’re Full”.

It’s sad that the Eureka Flag, that great symbol of standing up and being counted (Google Ballarat The Eureka Stockade) and our own National Flag is now tainted by the mark of racism.

Ours is a Lucky Country no more. Sometimes I weep.

MadRocketScientist reply on September 9th, 2010 10:31 am:

Honest question here, can Muslims be square with the first amendment? I mean, if we as a country have to worry about terrorist violence (or even threats thereof) every time some artist wants to draw Mohammad, or some nut job wants to burn the Quran, things are going to be difficult.

FastEddy reply on September 9th, 2010 11:14 am:

Most of them are. I attend a college in Michigan with a significant Muslim population. People drawing Muhammad? No problem, no violence, no protests. Nothing. That South Park episode? Still no reaction. Want to see something bewildering? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dearborn,_Michigan#Demographics

Roughly 30% of the population is Arabic, primarily Muslim. You’ve not heard anything about Muslims rioting in Dearborn, have you?

Muslims are just like anyone else. There’s a couple nutters, but they don’t represent the majority by any stretch of the imagination.

Sabra reply on September 9th, 2010 12:22 pm:

We also don’t segregate Muslims in our country as I have seen happen in many European nations. Changing that strikes me as a very bad idea.

MadRocketScientist reply on September 9th, 2010 12:27 pm:

Good to hear it. We need to hear more about the Muslims who get what a free society means, and less about the nutters.

Although that makes me wonder, why do we give heed to the nutter Muslims a lot more than the nutter Christians?

kat reply on September 9th, 2010 1:01 pm:

@MadRocketScientst
I think it’s because, while many christians condemn nutter Christians and do not agree with their opinions, they can at least sort of see where they are coming from, even if they took a very warped path to get there. For example, they can point to the “bible passages” that the extremists are using to “prove” their point, even if they don’t agree with them. But they can’t do the same with Islam because they don’t know anything about it. So they just assume that the Qu’ran says “kill infidels” without bothering to check it out.

daga reply on September 9th, 2010 1:22 pm:

yes, the lovely and tolerant Muslim community in Dearborn, that you know has Christians arrested, and makes them stand trial for daring to practice their protected 1st amendment right.

http://bit.ly/dC9eR1

Go Dearborn! Hey its a great place, as long as you are willing to submit, hey i wonder what is an Arabic word for submitting/surrender?

skippy reply on September 9th, 2010 3:26 pm:

“On Friday, June 18, they behaved very differently than what you saw on film from Saturday, June 19. They were not handing out flyers but were aggressively engaging passers-by in confrontational debate when they were arrested and cited for Breach of the Peace and Failure to Obey the Lawful Order of a Police Officer.”

Further explanation from the city itself here:

http://www.cityofdearborn.org/government/city-services/public-information/latest-news/441-arab-fest-response

They weren’t in a public place at the time they were arrested, they were harassing people (not protected speech), and they were violating safety ordinances.

FastEddy reply on September 9th, 2010 3:34 pm:

@daga
“Nabeel Qureshi of Virginia, Negeen Mayel of California and Paul Rezkalla and David Wood, both of New York, were charged in July with disorderly conduct after police said they received a complaint from a _Christian_ volunteer working at the festival who said he was harassed by the group. Mayel also was charged with failure to obey a police officer’s order.”
You really should read these things more carefully.

Seems that the three guys evangelizing were simply the head of a large unofficial gathering that was blocking up traffic or something. And this group had evidently annoyed security in the past, so it’s not a very large leap of faith to say that the police were probably looking to bust them regardless.

And, y’know, I never happen to hear about the Lebanese Christians being oppressed or the large contingent of white Christians having any trouble.

30,000 Arabs in a city of 100,000. That leaves about 70,000 others. Hey, take a guess as to what their religion probably is. Christians aren’t being oppressed in Dearborn.

FastEddy reply on September 9th, 2010 3:35 pm:

Well, skippy did a much better job than I.

James reply on September 10th, 2010 7:55 pm:

Following your logic i could say that the Qu’ran is a book of terrorism or that the crescent moon is the symbol of homophobic women-beating savages.

To compare the southern cross or the Eureka flag to the swastika because of the actions of drunken bogans is stupid and ignorant and to be honest quite offensive.

Both sides are guilty of wide-sweeping generalizations that just hurt the conversation on these already inflammatory issues.

SKD Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

As a pagan one of the best things I have ever had said about me was a friend who said “You are a better Christian than many who claim to be” shortly after he fended off a ‘holier-than-thou Christian’ who tried to go all hellfire and brimstone on me about not being a Christian. Truly intelligent and wise people are able to look at all the things which distinguish us whether it be religion, nationality, ethnicity, gender, age or what have you and instead of seeing what makes us different they see what we have in common.

Unfortunately the mass majority seem to follow the 5% rule. Any group is judged by the worst 5% that stand out. American soldiers are seen as blood crazed asshats because of the few who do stupid things like Abu Ghraib, taking potshots at pets, livestock and stray animals in warzones and then posting videos and pictures online. Muslims are seen as terrorists because of the attacks carried out by Al Qaeda and other militant extremist groups.

There is too much hate and ignorance in the world, we really need to try to understand and know one another better and stop letting the 5% shape the way everyone sees us.

CCO Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 10:04 pm

Well, Skippy, I’m a Christian. I’ve been concerned about how the government thinks that it should limit “hate speak” by imans since its a pretty straight forward movement to limit “hate speach” by preachers, which I’m told has happened in Canada.

I learned the five pillars of Islam in one of my religion classes: confession, prayer, alms, fasting (OK, I had to go look that one up), and the pilgrimage to Mecca. The current situation somewhat reminds me of the man who said that he had heard good things about Jesus and he wished more Christians had met Jesus. Which isn’t to say that I can honestly equate Islam and Christianity–not by any means–but that I can relate somewhat to having people who don’t represent your faith but are labeled as your faith make the news for all the wrong reasons.

(Leviticus 19:19? That’s almost as confusing as this upside down re-captcha I’m looking at.)

ShuttleZ reply on September 9th, 2010 12:34 am:

I don’t want to seem to be picky, CCO but that first pillar is Shahada, the profession of faith.

in Arabic: (ašhadu an) l? il?ha illá l-L?hi wa (ashhadu ‘anna) Mu?ammadan ras?lu l-L?hi “(I profess that) there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of God.”

For those who are interested and just to expand on what CCO has said, the rest are Salah (prayers), Sawm (fasting) during the month of Ramadhan, Zakat (giving of alms) and Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca)

In Islam, we are taught to recognise that the Qur’an is taken to represent the COMPLETION of the scriptures, and to synthesize them as God’s message to humanity and so call all “The People of the Book” (That book being the Qur’an, the Torah or the Bible. We recognise all these as the Word of God and of equal importance but take the Qur’an above all else.)

People of the Book is a term used to designate non-Muslim adherents to faiths which have a book of prayer. The three faiths that are mentioned in the Qur’an as people of the book are Judaism, Sabians and Christianity. However, many scholars have included other religions such as Zoroastrianism and Hinduism as well.

There are many statements in the Qur’an that promote tolerance towards People of The Book. For example:

* And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Qur’an 29:46]

In other places the Qur’an says:

* Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma’rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)

* And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. ‘(3:199)’

* Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . [Qur’an 2:62]

* Say (O Muhammad ): “O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Qur’an 3:64]

One thing that many people seem not to know, Islam does not have “priests”, as such. We have scholars and learned people who have completed several years of training and study of Islamic sciences, such as a mufti, qadi, faqih, or muhaddith and seem to confuse these with those village mullahs, imams, and maulvis who have attained only the lowest rungs on the ladder of Islamic scholarship.

I think I’ll stop now. My fingers are cramping up. lol

Who said you don’t get an education from Skippy’s site……. admittedly, not often.

Janice reply on September 9th, 2010 10:30 am:

I’m glad you shared that. Thank you!

ltc_insane reply on September 11th, 2010 9:52 am:

i’d always been tempted to try and find an english translation of the Qur’an to read out of curiosity.

Adam reply on September 14th, 2010 6:35 am:

There was one on the Muslim Student Association website for UC-San Diego. The website is down right now, though.

David B reply on April 11th, 2014 6:18 pm:

Isn’t there something in the Qur’an against martyring yourself? I am asking because I heard that somewhere.

Also, my PUBLIC high school banned the Qur’an, but allowed the bible in the school library, along with Mein Kamph, The Communist Manifesto, and other things, including works by L. Ron Hubbard. I pride myself on being accepting. I see kids getting bullied every day at school because of their beliefs. I saw someone try to slip a piece of bacon into the salad of a friend of mine who is a Muslim. I immediately told them, and told the teacher on lunch duty. I heard the kid got detention. DETENTION! It is my opinion he should have been expelled. He WAS expelled later after the school’s police liaison officer found weed in his backpack.

tokensocialworker Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 10:16 pm

I don’t really have much to add other than, well said.

MillerMechanic Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 10:20 pm

You may be right about the ones who agree with you in the comments already were leaning towards the same set of ideals, but God I love you Skippy. Thank you so much for voicing this because it needs to be stated.

I myself am a Christian and believe that Jesus have saved me from my sins. But I just came back from the University of Oklahoma Muslim Student Association sponsored feast called Think Fast. Today marked the end of Ramadan and I wished to celebrate the ending of the fast with the Muslims.

Christianity is nowhere near a perfect religion, and its adherents have more often than not are hypocrites and bigots. How dare we say we’re better than Muslims? I’ve met more Muslims that would adhere to the Christian moral and ethical system better than most Christians I know!

I know that isn’t the point, but I’m just wanting to say thank you skippy for putting that out there. That was the basis of the speech by my Christian professor at Think Fast tonight was the idiocy of the guy who wants to burn the Qur’an, or the people who don’t want a Mosque built 4 blocks down from Ground Zero.

Shame on us ‘Christians’ who put down great people for no reason. Shame on America for not understanding how idiotic and hateful we are toward some of the most awesome people in the world.

Peace be with you and God bless you skippy.

MillerMechanic reply on September 8th, 2010 10:25 pm:

/sigh…of course I don’t pre-read and figure out my grammar sucks and needs changed before I post the damn article.

M578Jockey reply on September 9th, 2010 10:04 am:

That’s OK, we don’t grade on spelling.

David B reply on April 11th, 2014 6:19 pm:

It is not a mosque. it is a cultural center.

Billy Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 10:50 pm

This reminds me of my own experience in the military. Granted, it was an incredibly watered down version of what is going on today, but it still made my blood boil when it happened. I follow something called Neo-Fatalism, and I am used to people immediatly assuming that i’m part of a suicide cult. When I had discovered that this was my set of beliefes, I didn’t even know what Neo-Fatalism was. I was attempting to be a white rope (Air Force religeous guides) and had to explain my beliefes to the white rope in charge. He accepted it, even if he felt it didn’t count unless I believed in an afterlife. A day or two later, I was talking to a friend of mine, and his roomate, who I assume was Jewish due to the yamaka on his head, said that I shouldn’t have gotten a rope because my beliefes were “made up”. I wanted to hit him, but I have more control over myself than that. It never came up again, though to be honest, the irony wasn’t lost on me. Now, whenever I hear that people are trying to oppose ANY kind of religeon, I want to engrave their ignorance on their forhead, with a very sharp and burning/frozen object, so that I can keep their ignorance from spreading.

Twan Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 11:08 pm

What really bothers me is that nearly every religious text that is recognized by the world community was written over a thousand years ago. There was a whole different system of morals and ethic back then. Capital punishment and mutilation were commonplace punishments. Women usually weren’t considered equal to men. Religion was accepted as science and was the only binding law that applied to the aristocracy. Think about this.

Parts of religious texts no longer apply or have been misinterpreted, or have been made by people who were ignorant to how the world works. We now know that the Earth revolves around the sun and homosexualism is caused by a genetic fail-safe that is triggered due to over-population. The latter is somehow unaccepted, unlike the former and the theory of evolution.

Now, I can only truly speak from the perspective of Roman Catholics, since I am one, but aren’t people forgetting that we are supposed to forgive other and to accept others the way they are? I was taught to be a good person and show others the light of God through my actions, never was I told that Christianity was the only religion that could be accepted.

Most of the excuses for violence that I know of come from the Old Testament of the Bible. But we need to look at the Old Testament through the filter of time. If the text wasn’t so aggressive in places, the Jewish people probably wouldn’t have kept their identity and religion. But did the Jewish people use these violent passages to wage holy war against the world? No… except that one time in Canaan. They lived peacefully even though they got the backhand of society where-ever they went.

This to me is proof that a religion doesn’t lead a person to violence, or to hate others of a different religion or lifestyle. To me, hating others for their religion due to the teachings of my own, makes as much sense as hating black people for their stereotypically large dongs. It’s just not right.

Besides, we all know that it’s the technique that matters.

On a final note: Since they’re going to build a mosque near the WTC Memorial, I want to see a statue of Philippe Petit nearby. If you don’t know who he is, look him up. That man has balls of titanium.

A final final note– a lesson in forgiving: http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=209

charlie reply on September 11th, 2010 1:32 am:

I agree, and yet, i disagree. It is in fact a very difficult subject to talk about with out trying to offend someone, but i will try. I am a born again christian. Many people claim to be christian without really knowing what the true meaning of being a christian is, but when they here the words “born again” in front of it, they act as though we are Al queda itself. Just another right wing faction of what is a “normal” religion. We are seen as zealots. When the words “born again” refer to someone being spiritually reborn when we accept Jesus Christ as the son of God, and our savior and redeemer for dieing on the cross to save us all from our sins. I have met people who say they are born again, but they are true bible thumping zealots like the extremists of other religions and have many facts screwed up and misinterpreted. They are everywhere and we can not escape them no matter what race or religion they come from. Now all that being said, I am an american and i do believe we all are free to practice our own beliefs where and when we want to. When i first heard about the mosque, i have to admit i was pissed about it, but the was because the media made it sound like it was to be built right on ground zero. I know now its not the case and particularly dont really care if they do or dont. Just as long as GZ is left alone. We all need to be more tolerant of the others, yes. However, Jesus spoke to us through the bible to go out and spread his word to all people. We believe in the bible and the bible alone, when the final verses of the bible, in the book of revelation actually say that no man must add to the word(the word being the bible), we believe that the Qu Ran is actually just that, an addition to something we were directed not to add to. But again, i am not attacking anyone here, just stating what our belief is.I know many people and have met many muslims that were also great americans. And some more patriotic then your run of the mill “christian”. I may not believe what they believe and vice versa, but i respect them, and can sit down and have an intelligent conversation with them about our beliefs without insulting them. If they hear what my side is and i theirs we both may be able to have a better understanding of each other. And maybe even convert the other, if possible. but thats besides the point, since someones belief is their own choice, and no one can make that decision but them. Let us all be that way and get to know more before just making blank statements

Twan reply on September 16th, 2010 8:30 am:

I like your post; however, I want to just point out that the Qu’ran isn’t technically an addition to the Bible. If it is an addition to anything, it would have to be the Torah. Islam is an amalgamation of Judaism and Zoroastrianism, with the Arabic god Allah being accepted as one in the same as Yahweh/Jehovah/God. Mohammad himself was Jewish until his middle years when he began receiving visions and dreams from Allah that lead him to unite the Arab tribes under one god and one government, beginning the Arabic Empire under the caliphs.

Phelps reply on September 16th, 2010 9:45 am:

If you are wanting to get technical, Mo was never Jewish because the Jewish community in Medina refused to accept him. If you are as cynical as me, that makes quite a few later disputes suddenly fall into place.

Twan reply on September 18th, 2010 2:31 am:

Hmm… that’s pretty interesting. I wonder if that was an influence on other aspects of his life. Pretty cool, Phelps. Thanks for sharing.

Jaclyn Says:
September 8th, 2010 at 11:23 pm

I am sorry you had to go through what you did. I am equally disgusted with rampant hatred of Muslims. 9/11 emotionally devastated me, but I’m still in support of building a mosque at ground zero just to spite the extremists, both Christian and Muslim. In fact, I wish it was possible to build a temple and a church on either side of it. And after your post, whatever place of worship Pagans use (I have no idea if that is even applicable).

Ihmhi Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 12:05 am

Heh, well, I agree with what you’re saying skippster. Hell I’m an Atheist. I catch just as much shit (if not more) for not praying to anything instead of just praying to something different.

One of the most fundamental problems IMO is that religion is too easily used as a weapon. It can be used to galvanize people to overthrow a government. It can make a soldier have no fear of death. It can be used to oppress people who believe in a different god.

It’s all a very difficult mess.

StoneWolf reply on September 9th, 2010 4:41 pm:

Seconded.

Merf Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 3:15 am

Too long. Did not read.

Captha: addictive conjunction

Justin Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 3:17 am

There are no exceptions in freedom. Period. I will argue this until the day I die. The day exceptions are placed on freedom is the day freedom dies. And not one single person will EVER convince me otherwise.

Tyr reply on September 9th, 2010 7:33 pm:

Good on ya.

Ian M Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 7:11 am

Well said. Skippy.

Kevin Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 8:16 am

As a God fearing Christian, who is the father of a Wican (whom I love and am very proud of), I can only say, Well Said. Unfortunately, I fear we may be headed the way of Germany prior to WWII, with the Muslims replacing the Jews this time. Stay alert Skippy, you will have support for what you have to say.

H. Valli Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 9:51 am

I work in an NGO active in a number of Muslim countries (mostly sub-Saharan Africa) and with quite a few Muslim staff members. The level of vitriol aimed my coworkers’ way is scary.

I much prefer the approach Kristof discusses in his op-ed: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/opinion/09kristof.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

SSG Hay Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 10:01 am

Why is it that the uneducated loudmouths of any group make the rest of the group look bad? For example: the morons in Florida burning kurans; Islamic terrorists; Catholic priests; Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist fucktards; the American government and their internment of Japanese-descended citizens during WW2 – most of the other people who share those religions don’t act like these few do, but somehow they taint the entire society and influence others outside of it.

M578Jockey Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 10:17 am

I know very little about Islam and as far as I know, I know no one who practices the faith. That said, as a die hard agnostic who was raised a congregationalist, with a Jewish stepfather and very good friends who range fron Born-again Christians to Wiccans, all I can say is, Who Cares how you pray, or if you pray?

The goings on in NY and Florida sicken me. I spent a good chunk of my life serving my country and to see my fellow Americans acting this was is revolting. I have family in Germany and when they ask me about things going on over here I feel like an idiot having to explain my the actions of my fellow Americans.

I wish I could remember who told the story but back in the early 20th century a famous British writer was jailed for taking part in some social agitation. His jailer asked him what relgion he was and he responded agnostic. The jailer didn’t know what that meant, so he just shrugged his shoulders and said” Iguess it doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s all the same God.”

Keep up the good work Skippy!!

Ihmhi reply on September 9th, 2010 11:38 pm:

“all I can say is, Who Cares how you pray, or if you pray? ”

The people who are in it for the money.

More believers = more $$$$

There’s also the idealists who firmly believe their way is the only right way and they spend their lives trying to keep everyone from being condemned to whatever their version of Hell is.

David B reply on April 11th, 2014 6:24 pm:

That is why the spanish set up missionaries in the New world, because they were convinced that the Native Americans were going to go to hell because they didn’t believe in God.

Katie Simpson Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 10:26 am

“And just because we haven’t crossed that ocean doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be concerned about where the boat is pointing.”
—
This is an awesome turn of phrase and I will be quoting it in the future.

kat Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 11:05 am

“I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it” (can’t remember who said that, but it applies) That being said, skippy, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I believe quite strongly in “An’ it harm none, do as thou wilt” Most religions have something similar, the problem is that it gets ignored.

I haven’t had as many problems as you have had regarding my faith, although there has certainly been some discomfort. The most amusing thing is that I know more about Christianity and its history than most christians, and they always get mad at me when I try to educate them.

Anonymous and STILL Employed Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 12:26 pm

To keep it short, I agree.
The thought that one day the majority of people could turn on me for what I know to be true terrifies me.

Shadowydreamer Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 2:22 pm

*Ahem* Skippy, darling, sweetie.. You know I love you to bits and would share my cookies with you.. (More likely to try and corrupt your children and help your wife pick on you, but that’s another story.) BUT, America is **NOT** the only country to oust Jews, thank you!

See that country lurking over you to the north? The country that joined the fight against Hitler BEFORE America? The country that never had slavery? The country that even has a TV show called “Little Mosque on the Prairie”? (That’s funny as hell, by the way.)

I have a friendly aquaintenance who introduces himself as a Jew first, American second. And I still don’t get what his religion has to do with anything. I don’t care whose name you do good in or whose name you do bad in, the name isn’t relevant, the actions are.

Though, listening to Hawk over at Applegeeks bitch about Ramadan is always, ALWAYS, funny. :)

Shadowydreamer reply on September 9th, 2010 2:23 pm:

Is not the only country to NOT oust.. Boy, the importance of one little word..

skippy reply on September 9th, 2010 2:51 pm:

True, but my family has never lived there.

America is still the only country that hasn’t ousted *my* family specifically.

Shadowydreamer reply on September 9th, 2010 3:11 pm:

Oh. Well, come visit Vancouver sometime, I’ll make sure you’re only thrown out of amusement parks and bars, never the country itself. :)

Adam reply on September 14th, 2010 7:30 am:

Sorry to burst y’all’s bubbles… but the United States and Canada are not exceptions. Look up “MS St. Louis” (the boat) or “Voyage of the Damned.”

The ship was carrying about 1,000 Jewish refugees from Germany to Cuba. Nazi propaganda minister Goebbels stirred up trouble there to keep the boat from landing. The US government would not let it land, either.

Source: US Holocaust Museum Website
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/stlouis/

According to this Canadian government source, the refugees were barred from landing by antisemitic immigration officials.

Source: Maritime Museum of the Atlantic in Halifax
http://www.gov.ns.ca/news/details.asp?id=20091105005

Diana Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

Thank you.

I could cry.

And I WILL be reposting this.

Y’all should put share/retweet buttons on this site.

(Captcha: MtGovide people. Sure, why not!)

Janice reply on September 9th, 2010 3:39 pm:

Yeah, the site needs them. Skippy never had much interest in Twitter or an official Facebook page and you generally need those to get that type of button to work. So I didn’t push to get them up here either. But he is looking up for it now. I’ll see if I can make that happen today or tonight.

Phelps Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

The only danger is that you are conflating imagined accusations (blood libels, pagan sacrifices, etc) with real attacks (dozens of lethal incidents over four decades converging to a giant smoking hole in lower Manhattan).

There weren’t multiple incidents of Pagans in the service opening fire on their fellow soldiers or rolling grenades under their tents. Should we bar the mosque as a matter of law? Absolutely not. Should we shout from the rooftops how pissed off we are about this particular mosque? Fucking A. The first amendment is a two-way street.

I want the 97% of Muslims who are non-violent to win the ideological war against the 3% who are. That doesn’t mean that I ignore the overlap between those two groups. America has been remarkably tolerant in dealing with Islam (as Wiemar Germany shows). This shouting match at what appears to be a deliberate insult does not a Nazi make.

skippy reply on September 9th, 2010 4:21 pm:

Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you just react to me defending Muslims being treated poorly?

It’s not Nazi-like to feel, for instance, that a Mosque close to ground zero is in poor taste.

Marching in the streets declaring how Muslims aren’t good enough to be considered real Americans, is.

Publicly declaring them to be sub-human, or a cult bent on world domination is.

Backing a Nazi-speech that has had the word Jew replaced with the word Muslim, certainly fucking is.

And yeah, demanding that 97% of the population be treated poorly due to the behavior of 3% is bigoted.
Especially when those same standards aren’t applied across the board.

skippy reply on September 9th, 2010 5:27 pm:

Well that came out as harsher than it needed to. Sorry, let me start over.

As I said in the post, it’s opposing a mosque because you feel it is in poor taste due to it’s location isn’t Nazi like. I might not agree with your stance, or your reasons for it, but that’s just a difference of opinion, which I welcome and respect. (Won’t stop me from saying that I think you’re wrong however)

But the manner in which you oppose something, can be Nazi like. Blaming an entire faith for the actions of a minority is moving towards the Nazi end of things. It get’s there when you throw in the fact that a lot of the blame is based on imaginary reasons.

Opposing a mosque in Tennessee or California because you believe Muslims are all terrorists is pushing that boundary. Burning the construction equipment to prevent one being built is crossing that line.

Stating that you think Muslims should register with the government is crossing that line. (I provided a link for that one BTW)

Stating national TV that the first amendment doesn’t apply to Islam, because Islam is a cult bent on world domination is crossing that line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BkdofiIm0g&feature=player_embedded

That’s the sort of thing I am upset about.

Thinking that a religious group opening a temple in an area where they have been operating for more than twenty years, because they have some superficial aspect in common with a terrorist group that they have never been affiliated with, when they are in fact members of different sects which have been fighting for centuries, based on being able to buy a large building for 4 million dollars in a blighted neighborhood, simply because it is two blocks away from a compound that was destroyed by another group entirely, well I don’t think that’s Nazi like. (Bit of a run on sentence there, sorry).

But I do think it is, to be nice, extremely silly.

But if that’s the standard that some people think we should go on, are we going to start enforcing it on non-muslims?

Like the NRA having a meeting near Columbine? Or the Catholic Church operating near a school? Or Christians operating near an abortion clinic, or the Olympics?

Or a bunch of people spouting angry anti-Muslim rhetoric near a site where an awful lot of Muslim Americans were murdered by extremist terrorists?

Phelps reply on September 9th, 2010 5:38 pm:

I think the main difference between you and the opposers is the “another group entirely” part. They don’t believe that it is another group entirely. They think that it is another group barely or even another group in name only.

It’s not a coincidence, either, that you are having to go to all these other places to find anti-Muslim extremism, because it is all but non-existent in New York City. That’s what I mean about Americans being remarkably tolerant of Islam. If anyone has a reason to beef with Muslims in general, it’s NYC — and they haven’t. Not until this, which, like I said, looks to be a deliberate insult.

Frankly, if a group of radical Christians (and they are around, like the Christian terrorists in Sri Lanka) bombed an office building in Jordan, I would oppose building a YMCA down the street. I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with the Y, and I don’t think that the Y would have anything to do with Sri Lankan terrorists… but it’s still a dick move. And you aren’t a Nazi to call it a dick move.

I didn’t and don’t oppose the NRA holding their (already scheduled) conference in Denver after Columbine. If they wanted to move it to down the street from the high school? Dick move. And I’m a pretty fervent NRA supporter.

And there’s nothing Nazi like in calling a dick a dick.

skippy reply on September 9th, 2010 6:00 pm:

Actually I think you are missing my point.

Nothing Nazi like about calling the NYC Mosque a dick move. I disagree with your assessment…I am not saying that your opinion is nazi-like for instance your views are consistent across all spectrum’s which I applaud, as it means you are not bigoted. I still disagree with your opinion, and don’t think building a YMCA has anything to do with whatever a Christian Fundamentalist group did.

But the other examples I listed? Those are Nazi like. Which is my point actually.

This article post is not about how opposition to the NYC Mosque is evil (although a lot of it is). It is about how the tone towards Muslims has gotten nazi-like. And I backed that up with examples, which you are saying don’t apply because they are not directly linked to one minor example of the problem.

Which is why I said that having an opinion on the mosque did not make you like a Nazi. But the manner and tone that you use to do so can make you that way.

“I think building a mosque close to Ground Zero a dick move” <- Not Nazi. "I think building a Mosque anywhere is part of an attempt to destroy our country by terrorists, because all Muslims are terrorists, and they are all evil and we need to be protected from them" <- Kinda Nazi like. "Muslims aren't real American's" <- In definite Nazi type territory. Slightly beside the point, but I couldn't just let it go. "I think the main difference between you and the opposers is the “another group entirely” part. They don’t believe that it is another group entirely. They think that it is another group barely or even another group in name only." I agree. Another difference is that I have actually bothered to learn a thing or two about Islam, seeing as how I was in a Middle East specialized PSYOP unit, and thus, I know what the hell I am talking about.

Prodigal reply on September 10th, 2010 8:39 am:

Sufism, which the Muslims who want to build the community center that will include a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero, and Wahabism, which the Muslims who attacked us on 9/11 followed, are not even close to being the same thing. You really should educate yourself on the differences before you make any more comments about what the people in NYC who want to build the community center believe.

diggher reply on September 14th, 2010 4:16 pm:

To me, the memorials, including the Mosque, are meant for the victims. I’ve never seen the religious elements (crosses, religious candles, representations) of publicly created memorials limited to exclude anything related to the religion of the perpetrator. To use your example of Christians, not allowing crosses at the memorials of Christian victims, because those responsible were Christian.

I don’t expect to change your mind, I’d just like to add another light to the conversation.

Phelps reply on September 14th, 2010 4:32 pm:

Diggher, I don’t think anyone has claimed that the Park51 mosque is in any way a memorial to the 9/11 victims. This isn’t a question of memorializing the Muslim victims — this is a question of building a working place of worship in close proximity to a mass murder committed in the name (justly or unjustly) of the same religion.

diggher reply on September 14th, 2010 4:56 pm:

I cannot find the news clip of one of the speeches about the mosque, and I don’t trust my memory of names to accurately identify their place in the whole debate. However, a general internet search yielded many results of articles and individuals regarding the mosque as a memorial for Muslim victims, and the need to recognize them. I’ve copied the links to some examples below (insert normal disclaimer about other people’s views/opinions).

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/11/2010-09-11_its_holy_ground_for_fallen_of_all_faiths.html?r=news

http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2010/09/muslim_victims_of_911_deserve.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×8972091

http://bonosrama.newsvine.com/_news/2010/08/17/4902261-911-belongs-to-the-many-innocent-muslim-victims-too

http://blogs.ajc.com/cynthia-tucker/2010/09/10/in-memoriam-a-muslim-victim-of-911-a-muslim-soldier/

StoneWolf Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

Building a Mosque near the towers? Bad idea, horrible PR, and indicative of when nearly every conquering group in history built their buildings to show dominance. Is that what this Mosque is? I have no idea. Are Muslims evil sadistic slime? No more than humanity in general. Does anybody remember the previous Jihads? I think there were seven, when believers from across Europe flooded into the Holy Land to reclaim it, except their symbol was a Cross and their word for Holy War was Crusade.

I think the basic problem comes down to “You should do things my way”. If they aren’t hurting you and yours (with REAL PROVABLE harm), it ain’t your business is they want to wear socks on their ears and dance around a sewage pit naked and have an orgy with goats. Its fucking weird, yeah, but it ain’t hurting you so leave it alone.

What I love most about this whole shitstorm is that, as far as I can see, Jews, Christians (and don’t forget that Jesus Christ was a JEW!), and Muslims all worship the SAME GOD and have been killing eachother for not worshiping that god in the same way, not to mention killing everyone else who doesn’t worship that god.

I may think someone is an idiot for believing in the religion that they do, but as long as they leave me alone and don’t try to convert me or coerce me into doing things their way, its not my business what they do or do not believe.

Keep in mind I descend from Neanderthals who eventually became the Irish and Russian Jews, and I love history. I’m familiar with this whole persecution thing. Seriously, if Hitler had his way my Mother’s Father wouldn’t have gotten out of Romania and I wouldn’t be here.

Where the guys who blew up the Towers evil fucking bastards? Of course. Where they Muslim? No shit. Are Muslims evil? Only the ones that kill people for not being Muslim, and they’re no worse than the Christians, Jews, Aztecs, Pagans and whoever else kills people just for not practicing their particular faith. Seriously, we have enough perfectly good reasons for killing eachother, we don’t need to be making up more.

David Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 7:38 pm

I am supposed to be writing a paper on the mosque using rhetoric and analyzing peoples motives and you are going to be one of the sources i am going to use. Thank you very much for giving me your opinion on this.

David reply on September 9th, 2010 7:39 pm:

oh and btw go to this website and read the article here its quite an intresting take on this … debate
http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/

angelus Says:
September 9th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

Skippy, thank you. I am a practicing pagan serving in the United States Army, and there is a Pakistani Muslim in my platoon. He is one of the nicest people I’ve even met, and it’s an honor serving with him. If anybody thinks the he should not be allowed to defend his country because of his faith, I have some words for them.

Gary Says:
September 10th, 2010 at 7:09 am

Yeah for you Skippy for the guts to speak up ! I totally agree and support your views. There is NEVER any reason to degrade ANY religions holy scripture (whether you agree with the writings or not). I am very disturbed by this pastors views. I think he is really doing this for personal notoriety and exposure rather that believing he must burn the Koran for the benefit of society. He certainly does not appear to take into consideration the possible consequences of his actions. It is sad when Christians (for the most part) cant follow their own edicts written in the Holy bible.

kat reply on September 10th, 2010 10:31 am:

well, when you consider that THE ENTIRE WORLD, from the President of the US, the top brass of all branches of the military, leaders of the UN and the POPE have all come out saying this is a really bad idea and US/UN forces in the Middle East will probably suffer for it. I think it’s safe to say that he’s just doing this to get attention.

Tyler Says:
September 10th, 2010 at 12:19 pm

All of you who feel the ground zero mosque is in bad taste should check out this clip-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/38731398#38731398

He isn’t always right, but this time he’s spot on. This country was founded on tolerance, though forged in death and blood. A Community Center, that just so happens to have a mosque in it, that is planning on helping the entire community in the area, should most certainly not be stopped.

That’s like trying to keep a large Community Center from being built that happens to have a prayer chapel.

stine reply on September 10th, 2010 7:55 pm:

No it wasn’t. If it was, Maryland would not be a state. But that’s just history, no need to dig that up.

All religious are either separatists or will knock down your door to convert you.

Oh, and I see they never demolished the autobahns, and 65 years later were’re still trying to convict and execute pimply-faced privates from the former 3rd Reich. And we never nuked Stalin or Pol Pot, so I guess were’re simply opportunists.

That being said, there are no rational reasons for most of human history, only excuses.

Excuse me while I crawl back under my rock.

Tyler Says:
September 11th, 2010 at 12:37 am

You know, no one ever fucks with the Buddhists. It’s really the only religion that doesn’t get nailed on a regular basis by random people… even extremist Christians who seem to have a hate-on for anything not Jesusish leave Buddhists alone…. Wonder why.

LoC reply on September 11th, 2010 5:28 pm:

‘Cause a Buddhist Palm to the face HURTS.

Seriously, though, Buddhism has already undergone similar problems to the ones we’ve got going on now… it all just happened long before western religion was very organized or monotheistic… and it happened in mainland Asia without the wonders of modern communications technology to help it spread.

Ziggy Says:
September 11th, 2010 at 10:18 am

Leviticus 19:19? Is that the one that says we can’t wear cotton/poly blends?

Seriously. Look. It does.

Enigmatick Says:
September 11th, 2010 at 11:18 am

This is a direct quote from my facebook profile:

Religious Views:
I believe Religion is the single worst excuse to kill someone. Sheer stupidity, on the other hand…

PaveSIL Says:
September 11th, 2010 at 11:52 am

I’ve been a long time reader of this website. This is the first entry that has ever prompted me to create a login and leave a commment.
So here it is: Thank you, Skippy, for posting this.
I am not a religious person but I find most religions fascinating.
This by far is one of my favorites entries.

LoC Says:
September 11th, 2010 at 6:30 pm

Funny thing is… when I was stationed in Germany, our Battalion Chaplain was a Kenyan muslim. Great guy, awesome sense of humor… which he really needed to get by.

The problem lies not with Islam (no more than it lies with any dogmatic religion, anyway), but with theocratic states. Most theocracies these days just happen to be Muslim (certainly all of the really strict ones).
Take away the power of a religion’s central leadership, and it ceases to be a weapon… only then are people allowed to get along with one another.

Phelps reply on September 11th, 2010 6:42 pm:

Unfortunately, I think that the problem does lie with Islam, in that you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics with the Koran to argue that it doesn’t demand a theocracy. If you could get the majority of the world’s Muslims to go along with those mental gymnastics, then Islam would have a much easier time integrating into the modern world, but believers of any type generally aren’t the kind to go along with that sort of thing.

Remarkably, that debate is raging the strongest in Iran right now.

LoC reply on September 11th, 2010 7:01 pm:

Well, you’re certainly welcome to that opinion, and it may even be justified (I don’t pretend to have studied Islam deeply, I just have a few friends who have)… but in my opinion (derived only from what I’ve seen), the Islam of today isn’t much different from the Catholic church of the renaissance. They’ve held sway over many people for a long time. Now that some of those people are being educated, comparing the teachings of their leaders to the actual books they claim to teach from (the “mental gymnastics” you spoke of… you’ll find plenty of them in Biblical debate as well)… well, now a bit of a schism is happening. Just as it happened back then in the church.

Phelps reply on September 11th, 2010 8:15 pm:

Actually, I agree with that 100%. I just don’t see Islam’s Martin Luther on the horizon.

LoC reply on September 11th, 2010 10:22 pm:

That’s the beauty of modern technology. In current Arabic culture, a Martin Luther wouldn’t work (Martyrdom works differently over there, killing him wouldn’t make him one)… but education is being forced on the theocracies by the outside world. Availability of the internet provides all the free thinkers over there need.

skippy reply on September 11th, 2010 8:16 pm:

“you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics with the Koran to argue that it doesnâ??t demand a theocracy.”

See also, Bible and Torah.

Off the top of my head those books have passages justifying rape, murder, genocide, theocracy, slavery, and of course, the total destruction of the Red Lobster chain of restaurants.

And yet, despite the fact that we actually have elected officials from those religions openly calling for theocratic law no one makes this case against Christianity.

Hell we have a Christian woman running for office, calling for laws based on her religion overtly threatening sedition if she doesn’t win.

If the problem is Islam then it’s also Christianity and Judaism.

Discordians are less of a concern because five tons of flax.

Tzanti reply on September 11th, 2010 8:31 pm:

Isn’t Islam about thirty different religions? A least on the major (more than 100,000 adherents) level. You can’t compare the whole of a religion to one schism of another (Yes, I am a Catholic).

The Ayatollah in Iran has no more power over the wider Muslim world than the Archbishop of Canterbury has over Christendom. In fact I would imagine that a reminder to American episcopal bishops to tie their shoes, issued from Lambeth Palace, would raise utter uproar across the entire country.

I recall Imams in Turkey, Syria and Jordan (not to mention London and Paris) condemning, and even laughing at, the Fatwah (sp?) on Salman Rushdie over The Satanic Versus (although didn’t some American bookstores ban it?)

If your going to compare the extremists with someone, please look closer to home. We have religious nut-jobs of every stripe, I bet you do too.

Jen Says:
September 11th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

Skippy,

I totally agree. I too was raised Jewish, but even my mother was agnostic at that point. I decided when I was 30 that I’m actually a Humanist, and I’ve had people almost literally back up from me when they find out I don’t “believe”. I don’t understand why they’re so afraid of somebody who doesn’t think exactly like they do.

I also agree that this Muslim hate has been reaching scary levels. It’s all done to distract people from what they SHOULD be voting for in November so that they’ll vote against their own best interests. “Be afraid of the brown people” is the best way that some people have of leading the most easily scared of the country’s population in the direction they want them to go.

Phelps reply on September 12th, 2010 11:53 am:

I’m sorry, but when I hear ‘vote against their own interests’ from either side, it screams confirmation bias. Both chambers are flipping in November — that’s the reality, and it has two causes, the economy and the HRA. “Brown people” have nothing to do with the upcoming election results either results.

People never vote against their own best interests. They just value their interests in a way that the person claiming it doesn’t.

Jen reply on September 12th, 2010 12:22 pm:

Tea Partiers don’t make a lot of money, but they’ve been convinced by Fox News and Glenn Beck that they have to vote for the rich to keep their money, and that they need to fear Hispanics and Muslims. People at Beck’s rally last month had no memory of him ever saying that Obama has a deep seated hatred of white people. It’s on tape, it was on FOX, and they don’t remember him ever saying it. If anybody has confirmation bias, it’s them. They listen to people who lie to them every day. I’ve listened to Limbaugh and it’s like listening to somebody from a parallel universe. Almost everything out of his mouth is the exact opposite of the truth.

The Republicans have pushed out almost all their moderates. The ones who are left have either always been radical, or have jumped to the radical side because that’s what they think their side wants. McCain has changed which side of an issue he’s on so often that he contradicts himself every couple months. The Republicans have convinced so many people that they have to be afraid of “The Other”, that they don’t realize that the politicians they trust are just using them to get what THEY want. The Bush tax cuts expiring is not a tax hike, it’s just bringing the richest 1% of the population back to what they were paying ten years ago. The tax cuts were designed to expire, it was in the bill that Bush signed. There’s a commercial by the American Petroleum Institute that has a bunch of people who don’t make a lot of money telling the public that taxes on oil shouldn’t be raised. The oil companies have them convinced that it’s THEIR taxes that will go up. It’s ridiculous. We’re in danger of the corporations buying the election in November as a whole because of the Citizens United ruling by the Roberts-led Supreme Court. Roberts asked for the case to be brought because he wanted to widen the scope of the ruling to allow for this. I don’t have confirmation bias, I have the facts.

Phelps reply on September 12th, 2010 1:44 pm:

My point wasn’t to argue the facts. My point was to argue that you are projecting your values onto your political opponents. When someone says ‘voting against their best interests’ what they really mean is ‘being stupid’. I’m sorry, but someone isn’t stupid just because they disagree.

And as far as facts go, when taxes go up, that’s a hike. It doesn’t matter what they were 10/100/1000 years ago.

Randy K reply on September 12th, 2010 6:32 pm:

“The Bush tax cuts expiring is not a tax hike, it’s just bringing the richest 1% of the population back to what they were paying ten years ago. ”

The problem is that hike/expiration isn’t just going to bring up the taxes of the top 1%, it’s bringing up my taxes too if nothing is done. In my case it’s going to cost me $3600 in 2011. The reality is that I can think of far better thing to spend MY $3600 on then I think either party is going to do.

Check out this site to see how it will effect you as well: http://www.mytaxburden.org/

“The oil companies have them convinced that it’s THEIR taxes that will go up. It’s ridiculous.”

It isn’t ridiculous, it’s reality. The oil companies have shareholders (like my 401k) that it has to keep happy by making money, so if they’re costs go, like with more taxes, then they’ll have to raise prices to keep their profit margins up (which by the way are razor thin), so in the end I pay more per gallon. That is a fact. Wither or not the tax increase is justified is another argument, but in the end the consumer pays all the taxes in the end.

skippy reply on September 12th, 2010 12:36 pm:

To say people don’t vote against their own interests is to ignore both history, and human nature.

People rarely vote against their *perceived* interests. People provably do all sorts of things that are against their best interests, what makes elections special?

And while there are plenty of people that can oppose the current administration without race as a reason, as I’ve said before on this blog, it’s naive to think that race isn’t a factor at all.

For the record I think the election is going to go down like this, baring some new unheard of scandal between now and the elections. Republicans take House, gain seats but not majority in Senate. Too many third candidate tea-partiers splitting the vote, and two many TP candidates getting the GOP nomination and driving away moderates.

Jen reply on September 12th, 2010 2:18 pm:

When I say that people are voting against their own interests, I mean that they’ve been convinced by people who know better, to believe things that aren’t true. They think that Obama is a Marxist socialist Muslim who has a crazy Christian preacher. Fox has put all those labels out there, and none of them are true. People think that the new Health Care plan is akin to what they have in Canada or England, and it’s not true, not by a long shot, but they fight against it when it HELPS them. They don’t care that they can’t be rejected because of preexisting conditions, or that their kids can have insurance until they’re 27. All they’ve been told is that Obama is out to socialize the whole country and this is just the start. He’s a moderate if anything, nowhere near as left wing as anybody on the left wants him to be. I don’t think they’re stupid, as such, just very easily led because they don’t try to find out both sides of the issues. They take what Fox and Beck and Limbaugh tell them without questioning any of it.

Phelps reply on September 12th, 2010 2:42 pm:

I’m not participating in any further threadjacking. I’ve got my own blog to rant on, you should have one too.

Prodigal reply on September 13th, 2010 7:51 am:

Shorter Phelps:

“Just because I’m wrong, that doesn’t mean that I’m not right.”

Captcha: Calvin warmucat

The transmogrifier must be on the fritz again…

Oddity Says:
September 12th, 2010 at 10:55 am

http://lil-0dd1ty.deviantart.com/art/September-11-and-Eid-ul-Fitr-178931437

for the american muslims who lost not only loved ones in those attacks, but their freedom.

AFP Says:
September 12th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

Skippy: I would suggest on those sites where you posted the Nazi thing, and post it again, with the original text (of course, preface with why you’re doing it, so you don’t just get banned for being an antisemite)

But yeah, I agree totally. Mind if I link this on my Facebook and Livejournal?

skippy reply on September 12th, 2010 9:01 pm:

Please do.

And yeah, I should totally do that.

Wileama Says:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:57 am

“And partially because well dammit, we’re better than this. At least we should be.”

This has described my out look on a lot of things this country has done in the last few years. Maybe it’s simply been that I’ve lost my nativity. Perhaps as you say it’s the direction the boat is pointing.

AriesOmega Says:
September 15th, 2010 at 11:19 am

I wanted to say THANK YOU SKIPPY publicly to you. This is one of the few threads that popped up here that has actually made by eyes bleed a bit trying to read all of it. I did get through most of it though and have to say WOWâ?¦lots of ideas and debating here. It feels like itâ??s a Sunday after church â??fellowship timeâ? at a Universalist Unitarian Church (UU Church)â?¦in other words itâ??s great. UUâ??s like to debate and you are expected to ask questions. This quote below I figured would be a good thing to share. It was actually in the â??order of serviceâ? that they hand you when you walk in.

The difference between spirituality and religion can be explained by what I call â??The Orange Juice Theoryâ?.
Spirituality is like orange juice. Itâ??s natural. Itâ??s delicious and nutritious.
Religion is the container that it comes in. Itâ??s man-made. Itâ??s hard and indigestible. It has a label on it and it competes with other brands.
What you have to do is puncture through the container to get to the same sweetness inside.

PhantomGamer Says:
September 15th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

Rock on, Skippy. At least now I know I’m not the only one upset about all this.

Eskimo Joe Says:
September 15th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

hear hear Skippy, well put

Willy Says:
September 15th, 2010 at 10:47 pm

Finally read through all that…. not much I can really add (and I’m also Canadian, so I’m somewhat removed from all this)

But…yeah. That was good. I have to say though, you have a point about not changing peoples minds – I kinda figured from the start I’d agree with it.

Jasmine Says:
September 24th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

Alright Skippy, I have never read your articles before, but this one sort of was amazing. Im only a sophomore in highschool, but i am brown. Indian to be exact, and ontop of that, i am SIkh, a religion you may never have heard of before. You probably wont even read this comment, as you have received many many responses, but i want my voice to be heard, even if it isnt.
The point is is that Muslims have been through soo much shit. As well as Jews. And Christians, even. In The early years during the visigothic era right before the fall of Rome, Christians were killed of. Jews and Muslims have always got the worst of though, during the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. But thats what makes them all the better, the fact that their ancestors died as martyrs, died pure and fore what they knew was right and believed in.
Just to give you background on my religion and why i am so caught on this topic: My religion is only 400 years old. A baby compared to all the others. The trees in my backyard are older than Sikhism. However, my religion has been through hell. Upon being formed, the Muslims and Hindus killed us, fought with us, tried to make us convert (us being my ancestors, ofcourse). They massacred us. The Muslims, especially. The Muslims would take Sikh babies and use them as target practice. They would rape an torture the women, and they would brutally and savagely figure out in humane ways to kill the men. Now, this was 400 years ago…and does not apply to me, but im sure you feel hate towards the bastards who tortured your ancestors just 70 years ago, as do I. But, I have many muslim friends, many Muslim family friends who i have known since i was born. And not til very recently did it hink of them as “muslim”, and what they go through everyday of their lives.
Just because a group of men fighting in the name of their “god” (which happens to be Allah) attacked our country (and killed a few Muslims in that attack). doesnt mean they all did.
One thing i disagree with you on is the amount of pitty you give Jews. I am sorry, but i am done hearing about how much you all suffered. Focus on some other tribes, ethnicities and religions who have been massacred too, and get over yourselves. I dont know if you have found any point in this comment yet, and im pretty sure its very long. I apologize if i am going in circles.
My point is is that my dad sits down and complains about the Muslims, talks about how much he hates them. But my mom and I sit down and talk about how much we love them. How much we love their culture, their ethics, their values. Study the pillars, study their modern day values. Most Muslims are very elegant and respectful people. My family friends grandparents are so kind to me, as I am a young lady, and they treat me as such. They donate money to charities every year. They are great cooks. They live very cleanly. This applies to every Muslim family I have come in contact with.
My dad owns apartment buildings, and he gets calls from people saying “If your muslim, im not renting your apartments, im burning them” which is then followed by an awkward conversation between 2 incorrect men. I have so many times become so angry over this Pastor Jones and other ignorant people. Even though we have studied Islam so many times at school and seen they are not bad, it is with a negative conotation. This is all Al Qaeda’s fault. In trying to spread their religion, they have doomed it themselves and brought their people to so much harm.
I dont know what else to say. I hope you read this. Even if it made no sense.
Thanks.

AFP reply on September 24th, 2010 8:20 pm:

Don’t worry, you’ve been heard (Skippy made a new comment below in response, actually), and you make many good points.

If it makes you feel any better (and I guess it really wouldn’t), on this side of the world, the various Christian groups are as likely to hate on each other as they might be to hate on Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, etc. Maybe not to the same degree by a long shot, but I still get the occasional nonsensical “Catholics aren’t Christians!” and the ever-popular pedophile priest joke.

It all comes down to people being afraid of that which is different from them, so the often treat it as wrong or evil somehow. It’s just fear at the base of it all, which is the saddest thing about it.

skippy Says:
September 24th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

“One thing i disagree with you on is the amount of pitty you give Jews. I am sorry, but i am done hearing about how much you all suffered. Focus on some other tribes, ethnicities and religions who have been massacred too, and get over yourselves.”

You mean like maybe write a long article about why treating a group of people who aren’t Jews, and many consider to be traditional enemies of the Jews deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, and not like second class citizens in their own country?

Or are you saying that the next time I choose to talk about how prejudice can effect you from a personal stand point, I should fabricate some other ethnic group to pretend to be a part of?

AFP reply on September 24th, 2010 8:17 pm:

I don’t think she meant to offend, Skippy. I have to imagine there are people out there tired of hearing how the Jews get the short end of the stick (historically, they do, just like many other groups). She may not have realized you were speaking from the POV of one of the Jews, and not one of those many other people.

Also, I get the impression she’s not from America, or she’d probably be complaining more about the ignorant Christians throwing hate around at brown people here. In the US, obviously, there is a lot more focus on the Jews due to things like World War II and the various Israel vs Arabs/Persians/Egyptians/Palestinians things that comes up.

jmireles Says:
October 17th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

First and foremost, Skippy, I couldn’t agree more with your post. My childhood was largely sheltered from things like racism and religious persecution. I can’t recall a single instance of racism directed towards me until I was 15.
Girl I was dating found out that my father’s Mexican. Being white and I guess believing all the little stereotypes about us “meskins”, he told his daughter that she was grounded until she came to her senses and dumped me. I think the fact that my mom’s white probably set him off even more.
All of that being said, on to the meat of the matter. I am a devout Christian. I also practice what can only be termed a “blended” faith. Meaning, while the doctrine I hold to is Methodist, many of my beliefs are also of a faith that has been termed “pagan”. Sort of like acknowledging Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but at the same time regarding the Earth as our collective mother, seeing as Adam and Eve were created from the Earth. Think Church of the Culdee, but from a different part of the world.
When I was a teenager, I kinda had a crush on this girl at my school. She was a beauty, but also carried herself differently from the others. So, I worked up the nerve and asked her out. Bearing in mind that, at the time, I usually dated girls who were nothing short of psycho, this chick was a major departure for me. Her name was Aisha.
She turned me down. Not in a cruel manner, but she also took the time to explain that she found me cute, and nice, but wasn’t allowed to date me because I wasn’t from her faith. When I asked, she said she was Muslim.
Somehow, I wound up going to her home, and meeting her mom. I learned quite a bit, which has stuck with me. Her mom actually invited me to convert. Today, I’d be honored and flattered at such an invitation. I wouldn’t accept mind you, given that two faiths are quite enough, but I’d still consider it a compliment. At that time, when invited, I sort of recoiled in horror. Hindsight is 20/20. All I can say there.
Years later, I would sit and watch in horror as the WTC came down. I remembered the things I learned from Aisha and her mom. Plus, I’d since learned to be more tolerant. So, I wasn’t one of those condemning Muslims. I was one who was trying to remind folks that prejudice is defined as intolerance directed at an entire group, based on the actions of a few individuals.
A few years later, I would finally enlist, which lead to my deployment to Iraq. It was there that my lessons in life really took shape. There I was, 31 years old, and learning shit I should have known long before then. But I can be a stubborn jackass, so there ya have it.
While I was in Iraq, I learned a lot more than how to conduct a basic medical exam in Arabic. I also learned that I can rediscover my own lost faith, and that forgiveness is about as universal a concept as can be.
One guy sticks out in particular, on the list of people who taught me more than I could have possibly taught them. His name was “Sa’ad”. I don’t really remember his name, but I’m about 75% certain that it was Sa’ad. He was a lawyer turned teacher, whose job it was to teach Iraqi detainees basic things like how to read and write in Arabic, math, biology, and civics.
His story though, was one that to this day makes me want to cry. In 2007, he was engaged to be married. As is the custom there, he gave her money so that she could go to the market, and buy something for herself. It was the last time he saw her alive.
While she was there, a bomber (I’ll never call them “suicide-bombers” given that their suicide is also a homicide) detonated himself, killing her and about a dozen others. Sa’ad was so devastated; he told me that he lived in a bottle for months after.
When the alcohol-fueled stupor finally wore off, he heard that our base was hiring teachers for the detainees, and he jumped at the chance. It took some time for me to figure out why, but he decided to work with people who considered his fiancée’s murderer a martyr.
When I first heard his story, I told him that he was a better man than I because I would have dedicated my life to nothing but revenge was I in his shoes. He told me that his job was to change the course the detainees were on, and that his job was done if one of them turned around.
Eventually it was explained to me by a friend, who also happened to be Iraqi, and spoke perfect English. He said that Sa’ad couldn’t seek revenge because he wouldn’t have had any way of knowing who put that particular bomber up to it. My friend asked me if I thought Sa’ad should have just hunted down everyone in Iraq.
So, the greatest lesson in forgiveness, taught to me by a Muslim. That and many other stories from my deployment, are the reason why I carry a huge amount of respect for them. Even the detainees taught me a lot. Of course, I’m a medic, so they regarded me as different from the guards, though we wore the same uniforms.
So, in short, I owe much of my spiritual and mental health to these folks. Don’t get me wrong, I met some extremely shady characters, and found myself face-to-face with cold-blooded killers, on a regular basis. But, by and large, the Muslims I’ve met have been nothing more than regular people who want to live their lives.

ii Says:
December 24th, 2010 at 1:37 pm

It’s unfortunate that so many cannot put the nature of todays conflict in perspective, badly inflated by media sensationalism and mob paranoia.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/09/an-apology-from-marty-contd.html

“…it is extra-special cowardice when you are ready to cancel your most precious national heritage because you are afraid of a speck.”

Signalist Says:
November 29th, 2011 at 2:16 pm

Ever since I learned about what my country’s last three wars were about I have held a grudge against Russians. I spent my childhood listening to my grandfather telling me that nothing good ever comes from hate, and today I don’t really hate Russians, but I don’t really trust them either.

Still, even though I don’t hate them, I tend to fight more fiercely with Russians than with others, except when I find myself being called a nazi but that’s another story.

One might ask why I am holding a grudge over some land lost 66 years ago, and rightly so, if it was just the land my grudge is about that is.

You see, my father’s parents were Karelians, and my grandfather lost his father in 1941, soon after Soviet Union effectively started another war by bombing Finnish civilian population. Recently when I did some research I found out that there were at least five other Karelians with same last name who died because of war in 1939-1945, and these are just the ones who were serving in the Army at the time, the chances are that they all were my relatives as all but one came from same municipality.

So, my family was forced to evacuate, some of my relatives gave their lives defending Finland and my other (maternal-) grandfather was a nervous wreck when he returned from the front as were thousands of others. After the war when my (paternal-) grandparents returned to their homes they found their homes robbed and ransacked, then the Russians had the nerve to put the blame for the war on us and forced Finland to pay punitive war reparations.

My grandfather told me to not hate Russians, but when I last saw him he told me that he had never forgiven the Russians for any of things I mentioned above.

I had a point when I started writing, but don’t know what it was anymore. I don’t hate Russians, and have in fact talked with few who are fairly decent people, but sadly most of Russians I have talked with are the exact opposite.

This Isn’t Funny

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