Sixty Seven Years Ago
On the morning of December 7, impotent 1941 the Japanese navy launched an attack on the United States at Pearl Harbor hoping to cripple the mighty US Navy. Later, when the Emperor addressed his people he went to great lengths to emphasize the industrial might of the United States. He even mentioned a little city, Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, stating that if the Japanese industry could not out produce this steel town, then Japan could not hope to win the war.
Elsewhere in the country, the motor city was beginning to emerge as General Motors and Ford Motor Company became industry leaders. Around the country the ship yards were booming, a little tool company called Mesta Machine Works was supplying machine tools to the growing manufacturing industry, glass was king in a little towns like Jeannette, and the country was clothed by textiles made in America. As the country shifted to a war time economy, this industrial might of the United States was put to work to provide the materials needed by the country to fight this foreign aggression. To the men who fought and died during World War II, this was the country as they knew it.
Today we see a greatly different country. The Big Three Automakers have been reduced to mere remnant of what they once were. The Steel industry of Pittsburgh is all but gone, with only a few of the once mighty steel mills still standing. Textiles have all but disappeared from the United States; try to find a winter jacket made in America today. Most electronics are now made in the Far East. The industrial might of the United States is gone.
In the light of this anniversary of the day that will live in infamy, I would like to pose a question for discussion among the readers of this list. What would someone who died during WWII, perhaps more specifically the Asian theater (Pearl Harbor), think if they came back to life and saw the country as it is now?
As I have tried to point out, when these soldiers went to war, the US was an industrial giant. The US controlled major portions of industry from autos to textiles, from steel to electronics. Taking this industrial might even further, these companies also had factories in other countries, some of which we were soon to be fighting. What would these soldiers who gave the ultimate sacrifice say if they came back to see all of the US industrial might now located in foreign countries? What would they say if they saw their children and grandchildren driving cars made by the very country they died fighting? Would they understand times change? Would they be resentful? What would they say of all the politics and policies that allowed this to happen? Remember a few facts, when Nissan came to the United States, they were so concerned by the similarity of Nissan to Nippon they decided to be known as Dautson in the United States. Also to enter into this country, many times these Japanese companies employed vast numbers of lobbyists and public relations people to influence the politicians and the people of this country. This question could also be posed to those who died in Korea (and by extension of the conflict China) and Vietnam. For these people would also be met by a flood of products from these countries.
I hope the dear readers of the list won’t degenerate into Union bashing, Auto bashing, CEO bashing, or any other special interest bashing. If you readers and writers wish to do this, please put yourself in the shoes of those who had just one day to see the United States many years after their ultimate sacrifice. Please approach it from possible angles such as: Would those people agree that perceived quality means more than national pride of product? Would those people see a disagreement on work force politics or organization as justification to buy a product from those countries who were once mortal enemies?
Lastly, what would they say if they saw so much of our country’s debt in the hands of these same countries? Would they still feel we won any of these wars? Would they resent their sacrifice of life in light of where the country has gone industrially and economically? What would they think of the push to a global economy?
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December 4th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Personally, I feel that many of those would be “shell shocked” in a sense by seeing America in it’s present state, though perhaps not for the reasons you suggest. I mean, we’re dealing with a country that just elected a black man to the presidency by popular vote. Such a notion to most out of the 40’s, when even Army units were still segregated, would be nigh incomprehensible. Let alone the technological advancements that have been made.
Look at Pittsburgh, an example you cited several times. Yes, it may no longer by the Steel City (or Iron City, if you’re a fan of the beer) except in name. But they, like the rest of America has adapted to the times. They might not lead the way in industrial production, but having lived in Pittsburgh for seven years, I can tell you that they are at the forefront of producing medical technology, research and education. Without question, we’re not the same country that we once were. But a simple look at the country’s GDP, GNP, or any other economic figure will show that we have changed and adjusted to keep up with the times, not just been left behind to die a little more each year.
That said, our nation’s current dealing with our former enemies I believe would actually be less of a problem than you might suppose for vets of WWII. Both of my grandfathers served voluntarily in WWII, and yet both had at least one parent that was an off-the-boat immigrant from Germany. Many would likely find themselves in similar circumstances. Would they really find it so hard to believe that the country couldn’t be home to decent people ever again? Yes, there’s always difficulty in adjusting to such radical changes, but there are very few situations that people are unable to adapt and adjust to given a little time.
Even in our own recent history, first-hand experiences for several of this site’s readers I’m sure, we’ve gone from seeing members of the Iraqi army as “the enemy”, to being “our allies” in the war on terror. Yes, there was a regime change along the way, but many of the grunts or lower-enlisted in the Iraq army are probably the same people. Would people who served and gave the ultimate sacrifice in the first Gulf War, or even in the first few months of Operation Iraqi Freedom, be unable to cope with this change?
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December 5th, 2008 at 5:33 am
I think would be absolutly shocked at the state of the US today. Not because of any surface differences, such as a black president, companies moving overseas,etc. I think they would be amazed at how Average Joe Citizen has changed. I grew up rural, so luckily I think I missed the boat on this one. When I grew up, if I wanted something I had to earn it, it wasn’t just handed to me like I intrisically deserved it. If mom and dad were getting to annoyed by me and my brother we weren’t plugged into the TV or gameboy, we got kicked outside for an hour or so. We didn’t get toy guns, fancy wizbangs and all that other expensive electronic stuff, we had rocks and sticks and legos. If there was a problem in the family we talked it over, whe didn’t go to a “therapist”.
I think our Honored Dead would be appaled that Average Joe Citizen barley knows enough history to know that WWII happened, or enough geography to understand where it happened. I went to college with kids who couldn’t find our Capital on a map, let alone a foriegn country. Kids who couldn’t understand Shakespere, Physics, Chemistry or basic economics (don’t spend more than you have), and I went to a tech college. I went to a Burger King yestereday, the first time in 10 years, and the guy behind the counter was so confused at a rate of one order about every five minutes that he wasn’t worth the minimum wage he was making.
I have seen Average Joe Citizen weigh more and more each year. I saw a school bus the other week and I’ll be damned if 10 out of twelve of these grade schoolers weren’t fat asses. Between College and my first job I didn’t do alot and gained about 10 pounds. I managed to drop that in a month with very little effort. I’ve only met one person with an honest Thyroid problem. He’s Polish. He grew up downwind of Chernobyl.
I think our Honored Dead would be appalled not at how the face of America has changed but at how her spirit has changed. I’m only 22 but saying all this I feel 60. I think the only hope we have is that in every generation there are a precious few who see what we are but know what we can be and try to make it reality. Those who can look beyond themselves and work for the greater good of their people. It is for this reason that I still have a glimmer of hope, and I would like to think that if our Honored Dead came back, after their initial shock, they would be able to see that glimmer too.
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Matt reply on December 5th, 2008 2:35 pm:
This just reminded me, slightly off topic, but my little brother (now 24ish) still has the scar on his head from when I threw a “grenade” at him, and wouldn’t you know that loose piece of asphalt smacked him square on the top of the head. You realize the average kid joining the military today was born in 1990/91? They’ve never really known life without home computers, video games, cel phones, etc. They scare me… and I think they’d scare my grandparents too.
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StoneWolf reply on December 6th, 2008 1:13 pm:
Yeah, I remember when my house first got a computer. I was about 14 or 15 and really excited. I didn’t know computer games existed (I certainly do now though). I was excited that I would be able to type my reports instead of hand write them. I even remember the world before the internet. Hell, the first TV I remember using didn’t have a remote.
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Mike reply on December 7th, 2008 2:44 pm:
I am going to reveal myself here. I am 61 years old. We didn’t even have a TV until I was 6. Didn’t have A/C until I was a teen. With that said, what is sad to me is the lack of interest young people have in the world and their own country. In this information age and the amount and depth of knowledge and information available, it isn’t utilized. Not knowing where your capital is, not knowing where Mumbai is and that it used to be Bombay is unforgivable. I don’t understand living ones life in a virtual reality, having your theme song blasting in your ears.
It was a thrill to me that all of that was put aside and we got involved in this last election. Young and old became informed, got involved and took note that where they lived needed change. We noted our freedoms were being taken, our life style infringed on, our leading role in the world has eroded.
My father who fought in the pacific during WWII would not be surprised at the global economy, only of our place in it. He would be upset that we have become debtor to the world and our status is second class. Those who died for us would have adjusted but they would say that they didn’t give their life for us to be second class. No matter which war, our honored dead would say that.
My hope is; now that we are aware and have moved for change, our direction is to the leadership of the world again and our honored dead are made proud.
fluidhammer reply on December 5th, 2008 10:38 pm:
Wow, I never expected obesity to be a reply, but it actually is an unexpectedly poignant point. Just think how many fewer teens would have been able to fit into a ball turret or tail gun position of a bomber.
My son is a VERY lean 130 lbs at 5’7″ and 14 years old. I’m suprised how many Ike jackets are already too small for him. He played against many kids in football who are already over 6′ and at least 200 lbs.
As for school, they’re too interested in special intrest, activities, and sports instead of the “3 R’s”. (reading, writing, and arithmatic) Don’t even get me started on history.
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Speed reply on December 8th, 2008 9:49 am:
I wore my Dad’s Ike jacket when I was 14 – 16 years old and my 14 year old son can’t fit into it. Each generation seems to be getting bigger than the last.
We had 2 TV remotes when I was a kid: me and my brother. We were also the fine-tuners too: “Move the rabbit ears a little more son…”
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Stickfodder reply on December 8th, 2008 9:55 am:
“Each generation seems to be getting bigger than the last.”
Not always I’m 6 inches shorter than my dad and fit into all his old jackets. Then again I’m also 8 inches taller than my mom.
fluidhammer reply on December 21st, 2008 12:55 am:
Hey Speed
we’re showing our age here. Just to allow my children the thrill of aluminum foil and remoteless tuning (hey if they keep losing the remote then they become the channel changer for the night), I got rid of cable. amazingly they survived.
is speed short for speed racer? just curious.
December 5th, 2008 at 5:33 am
You’ve reminded me of a sitcom called ‘Goodnight Sweetheart’ that aired on the BBC (though I don’t know if it made it to America). The principal character, Gary, is able to step back in time to the 1940’s. A clip often shown to illustrate the show goes like this.
Gary stands at the bar of a wartime London boozer. Everyone around him is glaring and looking quite hostile, he looks quite defensive. At this point the landlord arrives, practically manhandling a policeman into the pub. “Go on,” says the landlord, “There ‘e is. Arrest him.” The policeman tries to calm things down. The punters tell him that Gary has said that Britain would lose the war.”
“No I didn’t!” says Gary, looking horrified.
“Yes, you did!” says one woman. She turns to the policeman, “‘e said, in the future, we’d all ‘ave German cars and Japanese radios!”
It’s true though, isn’t it. I imagine that someone from the 40’s might, on the surface of it, wonder who _had_ won the war. From the experience of my family, my mother was a teenager in the 40’s. She has said that she still cannot forgive the Germans or the Japanese, even 60 years on.
Looking at the world today, in the context of your piece made me think of a couple more examples. I wonder how British or Germans soldiers from either World War would react to British and German soldiers working together on the Afghan reconstruction. I imagine a British soldier who left Iraq in the 50’s wondering what a few thousand British troops are doing in Basra. Finally, a soldier in Victoria’s army in India would be quite be quite unsurprised to find the British Army still fighting Afghan tribesmen, though he’d be rather shocked to find Americans there.
Thanks, Fluidhammer, for a very thought-provoking piece.
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fluidhammer reply on December 5th, 2008 10:20 pm:
Thank you for the complement. It was just a question I had been wondering about for a while. One of those random thoughts you have while driving.
It was a day that will live in infamy for those of that generation, unfortunately to the later generations it has as much significance as the alamo. Well at least to those who actually know what either one is.
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December 5th, 2008 at 8:32 am
Thing is, we DID win, memetically speaking. We turned Japan and Germany into the equivalent of adopted offspring, who have now grown up and are running the family business. :)
Captcha: Marquand $2 – Oooh, a sale!
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Stickfodder reply on December 5th, 2008 9:11 am:
And they have forced us into a retirement home.
Or they worked in the family business for a while then opened up their own store which is doing much better and are starting to sell stuff in our store.
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Chris reply on December 5th, 2008 10:03 am:
I think we forget that Japan was our “adopted offspring.” We revolutionized their government and simply Gave them our military knowledge. The result: intense nationalism and dragging us into WWII.
But hey, people think “separation of church and state” is an American idea. So what’s the point?
That being said, my grandpa has a hard time with even Japanese art and anime, so the influx of East Asian products would probably bother a transplanted WWII vet.
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Sojuma reply on December 5th, 2008 12:30 pm:
This is not entirely true. My grandfather was a WWII vet. He said he was one of the first Americans to enter Brussels after we liberated it from Germany. Now that being said my Dad married a Japanese woman and I married a German woman. The only thing my Grandfather said was “Good thing no one is holding a Grudge.”
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December 5th, 2008 at 8:59 am
I know they would be shocked at how the country they died for has turned out. My great-grandfather was sent to Auschwitz (he was hiding Jews in The Netherlands) and to this day my grandmother doesn’t have a single nice thing to say about Germany, or Japan. For a long time she tried to not buy German or Japanese products, but she says now it’s getting so hard that she doesn’t even look anymore. But I would agree with Stonewolf that they would be more appalled at some of the more subtle ways society has changed. The obesity rates and the complete and utter lack of basic knowledge about the world we live in continuously shock me. I was discussing the news the other day talking with a co-worker about the Mumbai attacks and a person who was listening said, “We need to just leave Iraq so they stop attacking us.” I was FLOORED. I can see why the rest of the world doesn’t like us, we can’t even be bothered to learn where landmarks in our own country are, much less anything about theirs.
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CCO reply on December 6th, 2008 9:00 pm:
Kat,
Have you ever read “The Hiding Place” by Corrie ten Boom or “Tramp for the Lord” by the same author?
CCO
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December 5th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Now, I’m not American, so my experiences and opinions should be taken with a grain of salt…I can only speak for what I’ve seen, which may not be a fair representation of America.
That being said, brief bio: My grandparents were refugees during the War, and came over in the early 50’s after spending some time in DP camps in Germany and Sweden. Additionally, I spent three months on an exchange in Berlin, I travel to the US on occasion, partially because I’m currently dating a girl from Chicago. As a Canadian I’m also exposed to a delightful amount of US media. Hooray.
Now, my grandparents suffered at the hands of the Germans and the Russians, however I must say that neither of them bear any massive prejudice against German or Russian products. On occasion, they’ll badmouth the populace at large, but they will also admit that that was a different time, a different government, and all the people who perpetrated what happened are dead or dying. We buy German products on occasion because they’re well designed and built. When the Russians catch up we’ll probably start thinking about their stuff too. So that’s the historic value from my POV.
As for the Germans, my time in Berlin gave me a great appreciation for the national shame felt in Germany. They don’t talk about the war, they don’t sing the national anthem except at the olympics and other such events, they don’t support their troops or show any sort of nationalism whatsoever. Now, they’re slowly getting back into it and the World Cup in 2006 was alot of help, but you could see that many people were nervous about waving flags and really getting into it at first. Nationalism equates with National Socialism (Nazism) in their minds. Persoanlly, I think that it was indeed a different time and different people. We should live and let live at this point. Forgive, but not forget. Besides, German engineering is awesome. Denying yourself a superior product because of something that happened 60 years ago and was done by someone else just seems…illogical, really.
Now on to America…the home of the free and the land of the obese. I’m sorry guys, but there are two general trends that I’ve noticed when I’ve been in America: Obesity and ignorance. Obesity is pretty self-explanatory: too much crappy food and not enough exercise. We all know it’s there, and other people can debate the causes, etc.
When I say ignorance I do not mean stupidity. I’ve met alot of bright Americans, and as a general rule you’re some of the warmest and most open people I can think of. But unfortunately, there seems to be this anti-intellectual trend…one could almost say that Americans seem to take pride in being insular, not being “book smart,” and simply operating under the assumption that America is the greatest country in the world and that everyone else should bend to their whims. You can still be sharp as a tack within your little bubble…it’s just the refusal to burst that bubble and take a look at the world around oneself. My girlfriend, for example, reads a newspaper every morning. And her friends bug her about it. Could someone please explain to me what is wrong with reading a newspaper every morning? Apparently there is something not quite acceptable about staying current with world events, and being informed about what is going on around you. These same friends are pretty bright…but they could barely pronounce “Latvia,” much less know that it is a country, that it is part of the “coalition of the willing,” or for that matter point it out on a map. I could really keep going for a long time on this one, so I’ll stop that point here.
I think that our vets (yes, Canadians fought in WWII as well) would indeed find the greatest change in the mentality of their countrymen. It seems that the men of yesterday were hard working, earned what they wanted, and strove to succeed even if success was raising the next crop and the next child. This holds true on both sides of the 49th. Nowadays, people want. They demand. They’re lazy and feel entitled. Again, true on both sides of the 49th. I don’t think that the soldiers would be sad that we’ve started buying Japanese and German goods – as previously mentioned, they’re not the same countries at all – but more so disgusted by the lack of remembrance, respect for self and country, and general apathy shown by the general public.
As an end note, I’ve made several generalizations here. This site is just one example of the many people who do not fall into the same category as “the general public.” I know there are exceptions, so please don’t reply with “but I know a guy who…” As I said above, I’m dating one of those exceptions. And again, please note that I am speaking from my own limited experience, and I am open to any comments and corrections that may exist.
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Stickfodder reply on December 5th, 2008 11:39 am:
“Could someone please explain to me what is wrong with reading a newspaper every morning?”
In reality nothing. I used to read the news paper every day when I was in high school.(they were free in the library(I don’t have the money to spare to get my own now)) When I did that I was far more knowledgeable about the world around me, and I miss that.
The problem is is that a like you said above people in the U.S. tend to be “anti-intellectual” and take pride in being insular, not being “book smart”. Many people in the united states just tend to look down on anybody who read anything other than the latest popular fiction series (not that there is anything wrong with reading them). So if somebody actually reads a newspaper instead of a blog the idiots figure that they are open game for ridicule.
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Minty reply on December 5th, 2008 3:42 pm:
I’ll admit, I generally don’t read a newspaper (I hate the news; all doom and gloom), but I’ve never heard of anyone being mocked for it. Not that I’m saying I don’t believe you, just that. . .well. . .damnit, quit making me embarrassed on behalf of my country!
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December 5th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
>”Would those people agree that perceived quality means more than national pride of product?”
The thing is, it’s not a matter of “perceived” quality. American cars and electronics have been shit for years, and Consumer Reports will tell you so. My grandfather wouldn’t have stood for it, and neither will I. Huge upper-management salaries and bulletproof CEO severance packages have much more to do with this problem than do living wages or health care for the workers. Unlike Henry Ford at the top of his game, the current management of the Big Three have a long-term history of not giving a shit about the quality of their product. The cars we’ve seen out of Ford lately have much more of the Edsel era- big, gas-guzzling, high-maintenance. I say this as a life-long Ford man, though I did have a dalliance with a Plymouth named Alice in 1997. These days I take the bus.
On the other hand, it is possible to buy good clothing made in the US. And it does cost more than buying from Wal-Mart. But yeah, I’m willing to take the hit. I buy organic veggies cos I don’t want to eat pesticide, and I buy American clothes because I don’t want to support subhuman working conditions in China.
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fluidhammer reply on December 5th, 2008 10:27 pm:
Unfortunately there was a period in time when the Big Three thought they were the only game in town when they weren’t. It also coincided when there was a thought pattern in these corporations that was “we make money not cars”.
Fortunately, they have started to turn the corner and are making some vastly improved vehicles. Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet are actually on par with the foriegn makers according to JD Powers.
Please don’t cite consumer reports to me, first they are extremely bias and secondly the difference between a good and bad rating is only one or two problems per hundred. basically the difference to them between an “A” and an “F” id two percentage points. Lots of people would be failing in reviews and grades if we graded everything that way.
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CCO reply on December 6th, 2008 8:43 pm:
I agree that there is still the thought that the automakers exist to make money not cars; all business seems to be focused on quarterly earnings way too much (I blame the leverage buyout guy, what’s his face).
I was disappointed with the quality of my Stratus that I bought used almost seven years ago, but now that I’ve got the rear engine seal fixed (finally got round to it) and got a good water pump in it (well, the factory one let got at about 70,000, the 2nd about a year later, but the third one has held up) –> 176,000.
I got 135k on my 93 Mustang, but car seats are a pain in a coupe. (Only one water pump, as I recall). I shouldn’t have put so much stuff in the soft pockets, because they sagged and messed up my door.
My point being that the quality seems to be an issue of perception. My good old days ’67 Mustang leaked over the dimmer switch — on the floor, natch, next to the foot-operated windshield washer pump.
I’d never heard that Consumer Reports was that picky, but it’s been a while since I checked them out.
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December 5th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
The U.S. is headed for a downfall. Rome had lead poisoning, U.S. has cancer, obesity, diabetes, autism, and widespread stupidity. I am american, and am shocked at how fast our country is falling. We are acting like lemmings. Why does the populace assume that any shit they see on a store shelf can be consumed on adaily basis? MSG causes brain fog (Huge decrease in mental ability and function) Sucralose causes cancer, and pharmaceuticals are killing us faster than ever before. On top of all that, our economy is non-existent. We’re basically cheap plastic from china and food from canada. Try to have any kind of an intellectual discussion with people who eat this shit. They’re one step above retards. Why are we doing this? A cheap high? 15 minutes of gluttonous ecstasy, then a 3- hour crash and heart problems…. sounds like crack to me. Then again, ignorance is bliss. I wish I was stupid enough to accept anything our corrupt government tells us, it would probably be something akin to sleepwalking through life. Talk about ingrateful, we are the rarest occurance ever to happen in the history of the universe. We get the one planet that can sustain life further than bacteria, we are the one species with a deductive rational brain, and we’re lucky enough to even be born at all. And we’re wasting the only life we have watching shitty sitcoms eating dead, dead food laden with chemicals.
I am convinced there is a conspiracy to lower the public’s intelligence. A stupid public is easier to manipulate than somebody who “thinks for themselves and challenges authority.” Anyone who is reading this, please remember that LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE. We need to eat raw, live food, not dead flesh boiled in fat. McDonald’s doesn’t sound so appealing now, does it? After eating raw, your senses function better, you are happier, and you think more clearly. Wake up, everyone!!!
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fluidhammer reply on December 5th, 2008 10:45 pm:
Wasn’t it Marx who said don’t inform, entertain.
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December 5th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Not an American but here’s my take. Those vets would probably be pretty shell shocked but I’d hope they’d adapt and be at least satisfied in that they won and now Germany and Japan (heck even China’s on the way) are democratic capitalistic societies. Probably less happy with Japan for all their revionism. I suspect they’d be probably very disappointed in the US’ (and the west in general) sense of selfishness, mindless consumerism, short-sightedness and ignorance. Remember when “elite” meant a good thing? Now we deride our political leaders for being “elite”.
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December 5th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
I won’t go on and on here, but I think it depends on the individual vet. Both of my grandfathers are WWII vets and aren’t THAT appalled at modern society. Then again, if you were to transplant their 1940s selves to the present, that might be a different story.
Oh, and yeah, CEOs have raped the American Dream. Good job, guys!
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December 5th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Hey there DylanSterling, there’s nothing wrong with food from Canada ;-)
Besides, moose is the healthiest meat around :-P
Seriously though…Canada and the US are highly integrated trade partners…I always take the products of one on par with the other, and assume that they are of fairly high quality. Unless it’s a car. We make terrible cars. Now, if you guys could just get your economy together and stop dragging ours down with it, everything would be fine and dandy ;-)
captcha: Me within “HOLY CRAP I CAN’T GET OUT!!”
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Stickfodder reply on December 5th, 2008 6:52 pm:
Wait.. Canada has it’s own car brands? Or do you mean Ford? And what do you mean “stop dragging ours(economy) down with it” isn’t your dollar worth more than ours?
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dainis reply on December 5th, 2008 9:33 pm:
Our dollar goes up and down and all over the place…it’s gone from 1.20 USD to 0.72USD and everything in between in the last year. And I meant US designed cars which are partially produced in Canada. Our auto manufacturing sector relies almost entirely on US firms, so when the big three start heading south, they drag down a number of Canadian plants with them…and thousands of jobs. That last one was meant to be a bit lighter, but there is a grain of truth there. That being said, my personal opinion is that it’s about damn time the big three faced a huge crisis and learned how to be efficient firms again. It’ll take a bit of time and alot of hurt, but they really need to get back into quality products, efficient production, and decent customer service. My family has a couple of cars…we’ve owned two toyota vans in the last 17 years, and one of them lasted for 14 of those. We’ll see how the new one does. On the flip side, my Dad has gone through 4 or 5 SUVs in the same timespan…Jeep Cherokees and Ford Explorers. He’s a land surveyor and needs to access not very road friendly sites on occasion, so he needs the 4WD and higher clearance, before anyone jumps to the “OMG SUBURBAN SUV FAIL!!” claim. So not only did those cars last a quarter of the time, we also shelled out WAY more in parts for them. It’s just a bad way to run your business…parts are profitable, yes, but if your competitors have a superior product for a comparable price, you’re going to lose business.
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December 6th, 2008 at 10:08 am
I bash groups who do any special interest bashing. (I couldn’t resist putting that here)
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December 6th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
All the electronics (pretty much, it seems — and up until very recently I repaired computers for a living) being made overseas give me the screaming heebee jee-bees. Can anybody say, “avionics” or “modern army three times the size of ours” or “if they can put people in orbit, they can hit your house with an H-bomb”?
Yeah, it sounds paranoid, and I’m not old enough to have done Duck and Cover in school, but I did use to live down wind of a SAC base.
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Stickfodder reply on December 6th, 2008 10:20 pm:
I’m not really worried about anybody dropping an H-bomb on my house. What I’m worried is them detonating one above our country. If detonated high enough the EMP it generates would fry all electronics and the electrical grid from coast to coast. Now that’s scary.
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December 6th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
While I’m reading this I’m also watching The Boondocks “The Return of the King” episode and I can’t help but think that it’s essentially the same concept but instead of soldiers from WWII coming back to life it’s Dr. Martian Luther King Jr. only instead of dying he was only in a coma. That’s definitely my favorite episode of The Boondocks.
Although I wonder how that episode would have played out if it had been made now that Obama has been elected President.
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December 6th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Do all of those industries have to be intact? I mean, the auto industry’s falling but what about other industries? You should also question if they’d see that too, or if the only things important to them were the things that were giants in the 40’s.
In other news, on December 7, 2007, I brought my first child, a son, into this world. =)
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Minty reply on December 7th, 2008 12:10 pm:
Happy first year as a dad!
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Minty reply on December 7th, 2008 12:11 pm:
Or mom. Sorry, I can’t tell gender on the internet.
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ExRedScarf07 reply on December 7th, 2008 8:02 pm:
Mom
Captcha: semi Widener? uhhh
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December 7th, 2008 at 12:06 am
Just to put my two cents in. First off I would like to commend most of the people on this website for giving there well thought out opinions and being open to other peoples point of view. We all are better people for putting ourselves in other peoples shoes.
My two cents. America needs to focus more on quality, instead of quanity. If people would take pride in the job that they do, including work, school, and family, that would solve alot of our current problems. I think that many people just buy stuff to make themselves look better and/or feel better. Basically keeping up with the Jones. Some people seem to think that they need to have the newest toys to look good. Let your own actions speak for themselves instead of your new car, clothes, i pod or whatever. When you have to work and have the patience to save moneyfor the nice thing that you want, you enjoy them more and take better care of them.
As for WWII, my grandfather fought the Japanese and I don’t think that he ever forgave them for the things that he saw them do to his friends. My father and his siblings would have been given hell if they drove a Japanese car. What I take out of this is that the war had an intense efffect on him that made him value America and what it stands for even more. Thank you all for reading my rambling opinion.
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ExRedScarf07 reply on December 7th, 2008 8:22 pm:
Modern day America is built on consumerism. It’s not the greatest foundation to build on as it’s quite unstable. I’d write more but my brain hurts.
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December 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
About 19 years ago I was in college and working at a department store in the fashion accessories department. On the counter of the handbag section where I was working, we had a small tray of lace hankies.
One evening a lady came in, she was maybe in her fifties and she started to go through the hankies. She was checking the labels and separating them. When I asked her if I could help her find something, she told me that she was looking for hankies that weren’t made in Japan. When I asked her why, she said, “I will never forgive the Japanese for what they did in Pearl Harbor. Never.”
Though I didn’t voice it, I thought, “Then should they ever forgive us for Hiroshima and Nagasaki? At least they attacked a military instillation, we killed hundreds of thousands of men, women and children.”
But as I think of it now, I wonder who she lost. Her father? Grandfather? Whomever it was, it was someone she loved dearly and missed greatly.
Japan had no reason to attack us other than the paranoid rantings of their emperor demanded that they do so. I know the war had to be ended, but were Little Boy and Fat Man really the answer?
In the end, is starting a war ever worth it? Look at the Middle East and the mess that we’re in over there. Is it worth it?
I’ll stop rambling now.
CAPTCH: MEN bored (that’s how bungee jumping was probably invented)
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fluidhammer reply on December 8th, 2008 1:35 pm:
Here’s a little thought for ya…. If Japan believed it was okay to attack MINUTES after declaring war (as they intended). Do you believe they would have dropped the bomb on Pearl Harbor if they had it? They did after all attack some civilian targets. This would’ve been a knock out blow before the US even thought about entering the war.
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December 7th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Shadow Cat,
One quick point. How many more soldiers, Marines, sailors, and airmen would have died if we had to do a conventional invasion? It probably would have been more costly in human lives than the Normandy invasion because of liberating another country we would have been invading someones homeland. There is a good chance that my father and I probably would never have existed ( has would many others ) It is a horrible thing that had to be done, but how much longer would the war have lasted? How many more people on both sides would have died? Maybe the atomic bombs dropped were the lesser of two evils?
As for Iraq, all I can say is that being there changes the perspective on everything about it. It is very hard for me to accurately express how it makes you feel about the whole thing. I am proud of my service and those who have servied. I have many friends and family in my town who support me.
ExRedScarf07, thank you for your very concise and exact comment. Does this consumerism come from the baby boomers or before that? Hasn’t America always been based on consumerism to some extent. I would appreciate your opinion on this.
I have the problem of too many ideas bouncing and fighting in haed at one time. Take 2 tylenol or drink some Wild Turkey and get back to me on this please. It always works for me:)(the Wild Turkey)
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fluidhammer reply on December 8th, 2008 1:30 pm:
I think consumerism is more a baby boomer thing. remember, those who came before them came out of the depression. Many of those people were by force of habit: 1. savers, 2. only concerned with maintaining the necessities. Think about what your grandparent would say if they saw you paying for a bottle of water rather than drinking from a fountain. I know many people who were shaped by the depression.
those who came after wanted the best for their children. they wanted them to have what they didn’t. each generation has gotten progressively worse in this habit.
Now, we wouldn’t have an economy without credit or heavy consumerism. the retail/restraunt jobs have replaced manufacturing. if people stop buying the economy won’t slow, it will stop.
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Speed reply on December 10th, 2008 2:14 pm:
I spent a lot of time with my grandpa when I was a kid. I guess that’s why I keep refilling the plastic water bottle with tap water until the plastic gives way 1-2 years later.
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TheShadowCat reply on December 20th, 2008 4:34 pm:
Ok, in my defense, it was late and I was tired when I wrote that.
My point was that after nearly 50 years after Pearl Harbor, here is a woman who just wouldn’t let go of the hate and anger. I know that dropping those bombs was the quickest way to end the war and it probably saved thousands of American lives. But what about the Japanese lives we wiped out?
This eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth stuff is foolish. Sooner or later we’re all going to be blind and drinking our meals through a straw.
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Stickfodder reply on December 20th, 2008 5:52 pm:
Keep in mind that all Japanese citizens of able body were training to fight off the invaders of their home land, many with no more than spears. So in the end millions of lives were most likely spared.
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fkuidhammer reply on December 21st, 2008 12:46 am:
You keep pointing to the lady sorting hankies and saying let it go. But you don’t understand many of those generation can’t just let it go. I’ve met people who were at pearl habor. years later it still haunts them.
let me put it this way, can you find forgiveness for someone who just walks up to your wife, husband , or God forbid child, and murders them. This is an analogy I chose carefully. We were not at war and this was a mostly unprovoked attack. To people of that generation Pearl Harbor was akin to murder.
Also keep in mind, the US has formally apologized for dropping the bombs. Japan has never acknowledged any wrong doing for Pearl Harbor (or any other atrocity they committed) even though they attacked PRIOR to the declaration of war.
That all said, I do believe noone was really prepared for the devistation the bombs would create. I believe they viewed it as a superbomb yes, but not the bomb to end all bombs.
I think ironically the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is their prevention of the bombs being used again. Countries look at the devistation and remember.
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Stickfodder reply on December 21st, 2008 10:35 am:
I do agree with most of what you say. But the reason they attacked prior to the declaration of war was not intentional. They are a culture of honor and they do not like to attack an enemy unannounced. They had sent a declaration of war to their embassy in the United States with the intention of declaring war just before the attack but because their translators weren’t very good at translating and poor typists the declaration of war didn’t reach our government until it was too late.
TheShadowCat reply on December 27th, 2008 10:19 am:
You’re right, I would have a hard time forgiving someone who murdered someone I loved.
HOWEVER, the woman isn’t hating the psycho bastard who decided to attack the USA, she’s hating an ENTIRE COUNTRY! Why hate a group of people, most of whom hadn’t been even born yet, for the decision of one jerk? Should the Jews hate every single German on the planet because of what Hitler and his Nazis did? That’s like me hating every single Christian on the planet because of the Spanish Inquisition. It’s stupid and pointless.
If she wanted to concentrate her hate towards the emperor who ordered the declaration of war, then so be it. But to hate an entire country and to try to ‘punish’ them by not buying their products seems to be a waste of energy to me.
December 18th, 2008 at 8:46 am
What I think that everyone forgets is that we as a country are only 232 years old. While that may seem like a long time let’s look at that in terms of the rest of the world. We are no different, we think that because we are Americans and we are this great and mighty group of people that we are immune to the natural change that happens. We are talking about a time that was fifty years ago. Alot can happen in that time. Why are we so dispondent at this that we think we are these tragic failures? What we need to do is stop worrying about the past and worry about the future. We forget that things like this are cyclical. WE can’t be so blind as to think that it can’t happen to us. It’s the same type of ignorance that gets people into trouble with their home burglaries and general security.
WE are still young by the rest of the world’s standards. We need to realize that we have a lot of growing up to do as a nation and as a society. While we have made giant leaps forward in some instances we are far behind the power curve in others. Think about sex for instance, thanks to the religious guilt about sex and nudity your child is made to feel ashamed about their bodies. THis translates to the schools which are afraid of sex and it’s education and this keeps children ignorant. Isn’t that the reason that people go to school in the first place is an education? So what do all the high-powered advertising companies do with this sex-deprived and ignorant society? They use sex to sell. You see it all over and that drives the society we have today. Sex is no big thing in Europe. They are enlightended enough to have topless and nudist beaches which we haven’t even begun to start they also are enlightened enough in some places to know that you can’t stop people from wanting sex and being willing to purchase it like a massage.
Along the same line government abhores the thought of homosexuals getting married it’s the equivalent of Armageddon to them. But for real what’s the difference. Heterosexual couples have been getting married for THOUSANDS of years. Now you can’t throw a rock and not hit someone who has been married more than three times. Are we afraid of homosexuals doing it better? That they are going to show heterosexuals up? This idea of homosexual marriage has been here for a while what are we holding onto?
POINT BEING WE ARE RELATIVELY YOUNG COUNTRY AND LIKE ANY COUNTRY WE ARE GOING THROUGH OUR GROWING PAINS LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY OUT THERE. LET’S NOT GET SO BENT OUT OF SHAPE ABOUT THE WAY THINGS WERE 50 YEARS AGO BECAUSE IT’S SUCH A SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME IN RELATION TO THE BIG PICTURE. WHICH WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE HUMAN END OF IT ALL IS RELATIVELY SMALL. I HATE TO BE A SPOIL SPORT ON THIS LITTLE PITY PARTY BUT LET’S THINK ABOUT GERMANY, RUSSIA, IRELAND, ENGLAND, AND ANCIENT ROME BEFORE WE GET SO DEPRESSED AT THE STATE OF OUR DEAR UNION. DON’T BE OFFENDED BY WHAT I’M SAYING BY ALL MEANS TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT I HAVE READ THE MAJORITY AND SEE THE SAME THIINGS YOU DO. IN FACT I’M IN THE MILITARY AND AM STATIONED OVERSEAS TRUST ME AT TIMES I WISH I WERE BACK IN THE STATES CAN’T WAIT FOR MY TIME TO BE UP HERE. LET’S GET OUT OF THIS FUNK AND LOOK TOWARDS THE FUTURE.
***END OF MESSAGE***
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Sequoia reply on December 20th, 2008 9:28 pm:
God, that all caps hurts mah EYES, so therefore I am offended, at the caps.
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Twan reply on December 20th, 2008 10:48 pm:
People are allowed to be worried about the state of their country and economy. If people didn’t worry, we would get nowhere at all. These “little blips” in time can cause massive changes. The course of history can be altered by one decision. I’m not going to rip into you about contradictions and inadequecies in your statement because these things are written from the top of the writer’s head.
But this article is about Pearl Harbor and the economy of that time compared to our current economy. Yet somehow you have tied this into sex (this shouldn’t be so suprising since this is Skippy’s List)and why America is archaic in its views. Yes you do have a valid arguement and make a good point that probably most people agree with here. But then you hit the topic of gay marriage. Which in itself shows the failure of our schools or just simply the ignorance of people.
Gay marriage is an impossiblity, deal with it. Marriage is the sacremental union of a husband and wife. Marriage preformed by the state is actually just a civil union on par with marriage in the government’s eye. Homosexuals, (Seriously, why have these guy’s fetishes destroyed a synonym for happy?) do have the right to love just as well as Heteros. They’re just not able to be married but they should be able to “marry” as a civil union. There is no difference except for the religious aspect.
I have no clue how economic failures turned into homos. So I’ll take the road frequented and conclude that you’re from southern California. Dude, people come to Skippy’s List for laughs, not to hear/read a rant about why someone has anger issues with society. Don’t worry, you’re not the worst and rants happen. But dammit, this is a place for lesbian koalas and how pixie dust will cause the zombie apocalypse.
Last (long) note: Compare maps from WWII to now and you’ll see how much the world has changed. Empires have fallen and countries risen. Thought processes have altered and cultures formed. We humans are a frantic race that constantly changes in how it acts. If you don’t think what is going on right now is important, then you just undermined Obama’s entire political platform. This would usually make me gay (Oh snap, original usage.), but under these circumstances my jubilation has been watered down some. So I’ll guess again to attempt to understand your thought process and say that either you think too far ahead or you’re completely apathetic to current issues.
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fluidhammer reply on December 21st, 2008 1:05 am:
zombie apocalypse i remember but i think i missed the lesbian koalas, i guess with them all the action is down under?
anyways, i know this was a serious post, but this seemed like an audience that could intellegently speak on this matter, and I do appreciate all who allowed me this indulgence.
this last post was one of my fears. to get bagged down in gay marriage would be a no brainer. anyone from 50 years ago would be appalled by this behavior. It also in many circumstances would have provoked and attack. This was a behavior that was neither talked about nor accepted.
thank you twan for attempting to redirect the conversation to where i was hoping it to go.
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Philip reply on December 21st, 2008 8:08 am:
It was not a rant in the way of anger it was a rant in the way that I wanted to grab your attention that we are a young nation. Countries like France, England, and Germany for example have been through all that we have. The reason it’s so magnified is that we live in a media immersed world now. We know alot more than we did 50 years ago part of that is education, which in a way is lacking but some is better than none at all. There are other reasons but I would also like to know where my argument came up short.